S3E8: Excuses Won't Get You There with Nicholas Lawrence

Host Leslie Pagel interviews Nicholas Lawrence about finally thru-hiking the 2,198.4 mile Appalachian Trail in 2023 after dreaming about it since 2012 while building a white-collar compliance career. Nicholas defines a thru-hike, notes that about 4,000 attempt it yearly and roughly 20% finish. Nicholas describes years of delays due to certifications, moves, and growing responsibilities, and how he kept the goal alive through micro-steps, practice hikes, and talking about it. A turning point came when his partner Catherine encouraged him to stop talking and do it, then supported him with resupplies and meetups. He committed in late 2022, started in January, experienced extreme solitude, managed fears and setbacks, and finished, losing about 40 pounds. He discusses evolving “whys,” trail depression, applying lessons to work, and advice to break goals into tangible steps and welcome accountability.

00:00 Welcome to Purpose Project

01:06 What a Thru Hike Means

03:28 Nicholas Makes the Call

04:21 A Decade of Excuses

07:03 Keeping the Dream Alive

07:49 The Catalyst Partner Support

15:27 Accountability on Trail

16:59 Planning Without Overwhelm

20:12 Office Reactions and Regret

22:56 From Decision to Day One

24:31 Cold Weather Doubts and Gear

27:34 Day One at Amicalola

28:27 Alone On Trail

30:31 Planning And Check Ins

31:11 When It Felt Real

34:10 Purpose In Steps

35:36 Hard Days And Whys

38:14 Training For Solitude

39:56 Whys Evolve Over Miles

41:45 Changed Body And Mind

43:55 Trail Depression After

47:15 Finding Your Next Hike

48:57 Advice And Micro Steps

51:29 Closing Reflections

Reach out to Nicholas on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nwlawrence/

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Transcript

Leslie 0:06

Welcome back to Purpose Project. I'm your host, Leslie Pagel, and this season we're exploring what it means to live the beat of our own drum. In today's episode, I sit down with Nicholas Lawrence, who had spent many, many years of his life dreaming about through hiking the Appalachian Trail. eventually, he made the decision. To step away from a white collar career to do just that. This is a conversation about moving beyond excuses, about taking small steps. It's a conversation about what it takes to finally do the thing that's been on your heart for a very long time. Let's take a listen. Nicholas, thank you for joining me on Purpose Project. I am really looking forward to diving into your story.

Nicholas 1:01

It's one of my favorite topics to talk about here, the Appalachian Trail. Before we get started, I'd like to just rattle off when I say Appalachian Trail and when I say through-hike, what I mean here. So if that's okay for our, our listeners, our viewers. I, I want to just share, uh. Overall perspective ly on a through hike and what that means. So in 2023, I did a northbound Throughhi of the Appalachian Trail, starting from Georgia and ending in Maine. The Appalachian Trail is the longest pedestrian only footpath in the world. The 2023 distance was 2198.4 miles, crossing 14 states, six units of national parks, and about 80 or so state controlled areas as well. Most familiar, it passed through the Great Smoky Mountains in Tennessee and North Carolina, as well as the Shenandoahs in Virginia. Around 4,000 or more people will try to hike the Appalachian Trail through, hike the Appalachian Trail. Every year, only about 20% will finish and we'll get into more details about that. There are lots of approaches. To hiking as well. Most will start between March and April of a given year and start south in Georgia and head north to Maine. That's the most common approach, but many will do it. Flip flopping, starting in the middle, going up, going back to the middle, going down. Some people will start from the north and head south and a number of other approaches here. You carry about four to five days of food at a time, and your animals include bears, porcupines, raccoons, armadillos, rattlesnakes, rabbits, deer, mice, chipmunks, and many others. And I think last but not least, it is the greatest. Personal achievement of my life. And I think anyone who has completed a through-hike will say the same. So that's just to set the stage for everyone watching and listening to, get their head around what we're talking about on a through hike.

Leslie 3:13

I love it. And just so they don't have to wait any longer, Nicholas did do the through-hike. He's one of the 20% that made it all the way through, which is one of the many reasons why I've been looking forward to this conversation. Nicholas, when I first heard your story, I couldn't help but thinking about all those times in my own life where I thought, oh, I just, I really wanna do this. I really wanna do this, but, and insert excuse.

Nicholas 3:43

Yeah.

Leslie 3:43

And you were explaining to me how this through-hike was one of the things you always wanted to do, and then you did it. So would love to kind of take you back to that time of your life and peel, peel back that onion a little bit in terms of how did you not let all those excuses get in the way? Did you have excuses? We'll get to all the questions, but let's first start with, Nicholas making the decision to do the through hike. What was going through your mind? What, how did you decide.

Nicholas 4:21

There was always a reason to say no. I had this in my head from as early as about 2012 or so. So more than a decade, right. 11 years later, I actually do the trail and that 11 years was filled with, I'm a compliance director in my career. Okay. That is complete 180 from living your life out of a backpack, right? So I was very. Still am very career oriented, right? And so I started my career out after graduating 2012 KPMG, got my CPA, joined the forensics practice. I'm thinking I'm gonna work in this white collar environment, become a partner, work really hard and just, just have all that and it's just gonna be cut and dry. And for a variety of reasons, I found myself as I grew and matured and realized there are a number of aspects about me that are craving at times the balance and the focus and the stability of something like compliance and white collar work and career path. Against the, I've got to do different things. I have to experience as many smaller lives in my life as I possibly can. And there was always an itch to scratch there. And so the Appalachian Trail, I was born and raised in Vermont, actually about 20 minutes or so outside, mile 1700 or so on the Appalachian Trail. And we would go swimming, go swim in the crick, if you will, at this part of the trail. And I remember when I was little, seeing these hikers coming through and the beards are down to here, and they got the huge pack on. And I just always wanted to do something like that. So it was rooted in my head, But as I grew in this itch, grew as an adult, I, I got into my head, I'm gonna do this. I want to do this. And even in 20 12, 20 13. Bought the gear, started planning, read books, read several books about it, the list goes on. But then the excuses always came. I was passing professional certifications. I eventually moved out of New York City and over to Illinois. There is no Appalachian trail or culture in Illinois. You're closer to some other major trails, but still you're not in New York.

Leslie 6:38

Right.

Nicholas 6:38

And Vermont, where these actual states have the trail in them and the list went on and then you really start getting into the responsibilities increase as you climb higher. The dollars, the stock options, the retirement and all those things just always came into play. So personally, professionally, psychologically, or physically, there was always a reason not to do it or to put it off one more year.

Leslie 7:02

Mm-hmm.

Nicholas 7:03

So what were some of the pros or, or how did I keep it top of mind? I mean, the first was just. Think about it, keep it, talk about it. Keep it top of mind one year or another, even if you have a long-term goal and you're putting it off, talk to someone about, read a book about it. Even just go on practice hikes. I walked on rail trails with a backpack full of books in Chicago because that was the only place that I had, but it was something better than nothing, even if it was an iota compared to what I actually needed to get on the trail. Talking to other people. Just sit them down. We just have five minute coffee break. What do you want to do? What are you planning outside of your professional life? I'm planning this. Wow. Tell me about it. It's really interesting. I didn't know people could do that, and I would fuel. Myself with the excitement of talking about it, Last point here is, what was the turning point? my partner, Catherine, she had known me since 2012 and she knew that I had been talking about it for a very long time. And 2023 really 2022 came around. I had a career change. I left my job in Illinois to join a very interesting startup. That startup was remote and I realized, is startup culture going to be for me? And that's a career decision I was thinking about, and I'm talking to Catherine at the same time, and she says, well, look, if you realize startup culture isn't for you, you've saved some money. Your current job is remote so you can head back to the east coast. Maybe it's time to stop talking about that, how you can actually do it. Right. And you get that moment where you realize the stars are never going to align. But is this good enough? And it was that objective from a third party awakening of, I think you might be right, this might be the right time. But hopefully that gives you some context about both fighting the battle of how not to do it right, but trying to counter and then of course your kind of wake up moment as I think it's time.

Leslie 9:04

Yeah. and what I heard there is that even though you were making, excuses and air quotes the excuse was never I'm not gonna do it. It was more of an excuse for now, I'm not gonna do it now because insert, but there was always something within you a knowingness that you are gonna do this at some point in your life. It was just when and when you were going through those moments where it's not now, you were still preparing for when it would be.

Nicholas 9:43

It, it, it's a journey of realizing it. Excuses and delays are natural as long as you know, definitively. Without a doubt, the conclusion is foregone. I will do this hike. No matter what. So every excuse every year that passed by, you're right. It hit a little bit less hard. Or I took it a little less personally.'cause I knew at the end of the day it was inevitable. Now can I control everything? Of course not. Is there a little bit of psychological lying to myself? Yes, absolutely. But that is the strategy, by the way you use to get through the hike as well, is you gotta lie to yourself a little bit and say, it's gonna happen. So you make that as definitive as possible. That conclusion is foregone. Your excuses, your delays, not only can you handle them a little bit better, but again, it it feels almost natural. I was like, zoom out. Mm-hmm. This is not an immediate failure. This is a long-term speed bump.

Leslie 10:39

Right.

Nicholas 10:39

And, and that mentality carried me all the way through the hike as well. But you, you are spot on with that.

Leslie 10:44

Yeah. Well, and then the other thing I heard was the tipping point was. a sense of permission from someone close to you saying, do it.

Nicholas 10:57

you're absolutely right because remember, who are you surrounded with when you're working in these corporate positions, other people who are working in corporate positions, there is no objective third party coming straight off the trail and into the office to say, Hey, you gotta try this other thing. You're surrounded by people who will enable you to make excuses and enable you to delay because their interest, stock options and career advancement and, and new opportunities and resume building are all of those reasons why you would never leave on a through hike. And so you are surrounded by people who, although interested, excited, intrigued. In some cases concerned on safety things and whatnot, when they hear about the hike, are not gonna be the people who are gonna say like, you know what, it's time to do that. Especially if you work for'em. And, and so to have someone objectively say, why don't you stop talking about it and do it. Mm-hmm. Or why don't you stop thinking you need more stock, more money, more career advancement, more titles, more whatever, and, and actually look at something that, that matters in a different way. And when you stay in your bubble of your work bubble, you, you don't, you're not gonna find that objectivity, if you will.

Leslie 12:08

Yeah. Well, and what I hear there is very much of, we need to, we need to have people in our lives that. Serve multiple purposes. in our work world, we have the people that help us be motivated to do our job and happy to do our job and all that, but when we have this itch that's outside of the work world, we need someone, we need people in our lives that can help us understand that and help us scratch that itch.

Nicholas 12:39

The term poking the bear should be something that is in the minds of every loved one. Supporting someone who has an initiative or vision as, as wild, as a through hike. Hey, what, what's going on with the hike? What did you do this year? Or I, I read an article about someone who did it recently. Have you seen it? I read a book, kind of this miniature version of immersing yourself into someone else's goal with the objective of. Keeping them honest about it. Mm-hmm. And bringing'em up, you know, have you done anything for it in the last six months? Mm-hmm. And, and my partner, she really went the extra mile. But not only did she serve as the objective catalyst, but she supported resupplies along the trail. She flew out to these really rural trail towns that you would never be taking vacations to. Just to meet me and spend a few days with me while I decompressed, after being out in the wilds for many days at a time and, and going many days without seeing people and cars and, and the like. And so the degree to which a loved one will immerse themselves in your goal can be anything from 0.1 to 100, but never zero. Always prod in a thoughtful way. Yeah. When you see someone's passion. About, about a long term goal like this to help keep them honest a little bit.

Leslie 14:05

Right. Poking the bear. And as you were describing that, I found myself thinking, some relationships don't necessarily have that person that's poking the bear. Mm-hmm. because of fear or worry or whatever, But for you, you were fortunate to have someone, understand that this is a, a dream, a life, a passion, a purpose of yours, and not be intimidated, threatened by it, but instead, Actively involved in helping to make that happen for you.

Nicholas 14:42

And that means the world. it makes a world of difference when someone takes a vested interest in your success. And it goes with good managers as well as spouses, partners, best friends, and parents. It's all the same principle is I just want to hold on to a piece of your vision and your passion and be a part of it because in a way that gives the individual who's aiming for this goal and this vision, a little bit more responsibility to say, I'm not only accountable to myself, but someone else has invested just a little bit of interest, time, and care into me as well. And I have this sense of obligation to follow through with it both for me and for them.

Leslie 15:27

Did you, I wanna get to the hike, but

Nicholas 15:30

Yeah.

Leslie 15:30

Was that sense of responsibility held all the way through the hike?

Nicholas 15:35

Particularly, it would build if anything, because when I saw the number of flights and rental cars she would have to take to get down to Hot Springs, North Carolina or Marion, Virginia, I always got an extra boost, not only just from the reprieve of relaxation and being able to see someone that I love and care about, but also from the sense of this is yet another contribution they've made to me. And so as they help me, every resupply box I got, you switch boots out every 500 miles or so, right? A new pair of boots sent to me. And this was beyond my partner, my parents, my family also helping me to manage resupply. And you get these little things you say, this is something that someone has continued to inject their efforts into my success. And in a way that same obligation and accountability will keep you going.'cause you wanna say, thanks for doing this. I've used it. I've, I, I, it's fueled me, right? It's, it's helped fill up my tank a little bit more and it's a hundred miles later. Right? And, and it's a way of showing thank you. By continuing to succeed and continuing to, to walk.

Leslie 16:39

Yeah. So it is, I made this decision because of you, and now I'm doing it in part for you too.

Nicholas 16:50

Mm-hmm.

Leslie 16:50

How cool

16:51

is

Leslie 16:51

that?

Nicholas 16:51

It's the best way I can, I can pay forward the efforts that you're taking to help me along.

Leslie 16:56

Yeah.

Nicholas 16:57

Is, is, is succeed for it.

Leslie 16:59

So take us back to the day that you decided, you said, I'm doing this.

Nicholas 17:04

did. Mm-hmm.

Leslie 17:05

What did that day look like, were you doing it the next day? Was it, I'm doing it this year? take us through what happened?

Nicholas 17:13

I would say Q4 of 2022 came into fruition where I said, alright, I like where I work. I've enjoyed the experiences, but at the end of the day, I feel like I have turned this corner of, I want my career to remain for the next several decades in large pharma and large companies and established areas. So I'm answering the first question, which is, startup culture is not gonna be where I want to be in the long term. And I've been able to see that in the last 10 or 11 months. And so when I made that first call, the second call came, which is, It's time to do this hike. That's where a flood of other questions came in. But you have to maintain sort of, keep, keep the door shut kind of thing, because then it's all of, okay, but what about after the hike? And are you gonna have enough money? And, and what if you don't succeed? And it, the, the list just goes on and on, but at the end of the day, you have to start in piecemeal. And so the, the, the second answer, the second point was, I'm doing this hike, it's gonna happen, right? Let's focus just on planning these logistics for the hike. When am I gonna do it as all my gear ready to go? What are resupply points gonna look like? So I think it's just, sort of. Make the second call and then prevent the flood of questions and try to not become overwhelmed with this decision. And that did take probably a couple days where I said yes to it, and then I just sort of had to process and, and calm myself down instead of trying to tackle everything at once.

Leslie 18:54

so you said yes, you said I had this flood of, feelings that were happening And you were aware of that and, to me, I am imagining that you're saying, okay, I'm aware of this. I need to just slow down and pause and breathe.

Nicholas 19:11

Yeah. You get, because remember it is this, I've been 10 years of talking about it and, and musing on it and reading books about it. That's all still theory, right? Even now, I had done a practice hike. I had gone out on the trail, the portion in Vermont myself several times and these other points of, of trying to make it as real as possible for me. But at the end of the day, when you turn the corner and say, okay, the flight is booked, right? I'm, I'm booking reservations at Amic Kola Lodge, where the trail, or rather the approach trail starts, which we can get into. But, making these things real, even like, how am I gonna get a hiking pack on a plane? All these little things came into my mind and those little nuances, they weren't in my books, they weren't in my musings. That was all just fun and excitement. And I was like, wow, okay. Like the rubber's hitting the road here. you tell yourself for so long, I know I'm gonna do it, but then there's still that sort of second milestone of truly turning the corner and say it's real. And that still comes with a flood of feelings.

Leslie 20:12

So when you decided to do this hike, what were you hearing from other people?

Nicholas 20:19

one of the more fascinating pre-high experiences as I look back on it now, was talking with others about it. Remember, we are in white collar land here, so we're sitting in a conference room, we're looking at PowerPoint presentations, we're running data analytics here and, and. These personal points would come up sometimes about, you know, what are you working on outside of work? What are your interests? That kind of thing. And the hike would come up and I would explain it to people and there would be a mix of, of, of intrigue, of interest, of concern, like I've said. And just overall, like question after question. I, I want to hear more about it. Right. And particularly with senior people who, for all intents and purposes have won the capitalism contest. they have the senior title, lots of responsibility, great stock options and bonus and money. And, they're there. And as I would say this, talk about this hike, you could see with those people this kind of spark in their eyes. and some would even say it out loud. They would say, I wish I had done that. Or they would start talking about their own. Hike equivalent, what they wanted to do at a certain point, and they did it, and then that spark goes out and they say, well, we should probably finish this PowerPoint deck. Right? and those little moments for me were fuel in the tank for me to say, I don't ever want to have my spark go out. I don't want to ever have a only a spark. And then it's extinguished by, by a regret because the time has gone by. There are things in your life that I think that accomplishments in corporate worlds, may never, it's a thirst that, that those accomplishments may never quench. And so when, when I had those experiences and I would see that, that light up, I said, I, I, I don't want to be someone who has their light still lighting up and it's too late to do anything about

22:26

it.

Leslie 22:26

That is, that's one of the reasons why I wanted you on the show. we're all human. and as a part of being human, there are things that we, are interested in, that we're passionate about, that we wanna go do, and then there's the excuse. Mm-hmm. And hearing from someone that's, not going to let the excuse get in their way, but really prioritize it and not let their sparkle dim. yeah. Is, is why I wanted to tell this story.

Nicholas 22:54

Yeah.

Leslie 22:55

Cool. So how long was it between deciding to do it and then day one,

Nicholas 23:01

it was, I would say late September when I really made the call of like, it's gonna happen now. I was a January start

Leslie 23:09

in Georgia.

Nicholas 23:09

September to

Leslie 23:10

January.

Nicholas 23:11

Now keep in mind there had been practice hikes, there had been gear, there had been fitness. I was running regularly regardless. So I was in this mode of trying to temper myself to say, let's get to maintenance mode, to have the fitness and things like that if you can. At the end of the day, this, this clicked and I said, alright, I, I think, I think it's time now. And so, I said let's flip from maintenance mode to action mode here. it's September, I wanna start in January. And I did work, I worked all the way up until the last week before I left. And a part of that was, practical, right? Mm-hmm. I wanted to continue learning as much as I could. I had projects going on, I wanted to finish them. I wanted to finish the year strong. and I was a compliance director on Friday and I was unemployed, hiker trash on Saturday. That was January 20th. I am wandering on the trail. Wow.

Leslie 24:13

So it

Nicholas 24:14

really was night and day for me. But again, I did it in a measured, practical fashion. Finished strong on the year. But at the end of the day, there couldn't have been a sharper transition than, than that moment right there between Friday and Saturday.

Leslie 24:30

Yeah. During that period, September to January, did you notice if things were working in your favor, like call it luck, call it the universe. Any of that happening,

Nicholas 24:45

if anything? Some of the, the, the, the mental hesitations took me in the other direction. Particularly I was in Vermont at this time, this September to January timeframe. And I remember going out at night and it's, it's 20 degrees, the wind is howling, okay? The snow is falling and it's pitch black. Especially in a place in small towns in Vermont, you don't have, street lamps, right? And I remember kind of standing on the porch and looking out into that and say, I'm gonna be out there and there's gonna be no house I'm gonna walk back into. And every noise that I would hear, and every, you know, you put your headlamp on and the yellow, the yellow eyes that are looking back at you, those are all gonna be there. And I'm gonna be out there with, with. My house on my back and everything I can have on my back and nobody and nothing, and you don't walk back into a, a nice warm house. So I had these moments that said, am I really going to do this? And there were a couple admittedly, like impulse purchases to say like, ah, actually I know my, my sleeping bag is, is pretty good and it's pretty heavy and it's rated for the right weather, but like, I might spend a little bit more and get a better one, just to be sure. So you have a, a, a few hesitations there as to like, you know, if, if anything, like, well, let me just plan a little bit more. You know, I'm a planner and I, I, you know, a lot of preparation there. So I, if anything it was, it was in that way. I would say though, one. Sort of fate point, luck point. I was on a practice hike in December. another one with a very experienced hiker. and, I had a, 20 d 20 degree bag with a liner in it, that I felt was gonna be the right fit for me that, that hike. the mice, there are lots of mice in Appalachian trail shelters, which are nothing more than three walled lean, two type structures if you find a shelter at all. mice got into, my sleeping bag and I woke up and there were feathers flying everywhere. the down had been pulled out. That is very dangerous. It's a very dangerous situation to, to, to happen because that's your primary source of warmth. and you need to get off the trail immediately in cold weather. I ended up replacing it with a zero degree bag, which ended up being the perfect bag for me, especially in the weather that I encountered. So if anything, during some prep, I had some good luck, some bad luck, followed by some good luck. And it just so happened an hour north in Vermont, actually in New York, over the border, there was, zero degree sleeping bags, particularly a brand I was looking for are very hard to find. They just had one in stock. I took the drive that same day and was able to find it, and pick it up in person. Otherwise it would've been a long time of shipping and things like that. And we were getting close to, to departure time. Right. So a, a couple fateful moments like that perhaps happened, but

Leslie 27:30

yeah.

Nicholas 27:30

Mental, mental. Mm-hmm. Obstacles and concerns there.

Leslie 27:33

Yeah. Okay, take us to day one. So, yeah, January 21st.

Nicholas 27:39

So I'm gonna ask you to pull up on the stage here, just one shot. This is January 21st. This is me, leaving Amic Lodge at mile minus eight. That is everything that, my life will be for the next, 153 days. So, I am excited, my partner's taking this picture. She was down there wishing me well and seeing me off. That's about 26, 27 pounds of gear and that includes food and water, in there. And there was a lot of feelings going on at this time. A lot of, I would say, microcosm in, in, in and macrocosm feelings, or a lot of very acute ones and very existential ones. It's very hard to explain everything that's going on in this picture. a couple examples, I'm looking back at the camera here and I've walked away, it was a few mi a few minutes later, and I remember looking back again, thinking for some reason that, that she was still gonna be there or that I was gonna come out to a road crossing and there'd be a car to pick me up or something. I still felt like this is a day hike. Right. I, I'm just out exploring. What's more I was seeing now, this was January, but it was warm enough, at least at this elevation, 35, 40 degrees. People were still kind of exploring milling about this is a popular place, for Georgians to, explore and and appreciate nature. People were walking by me and, and I talked to a few of'em, but I just remember thinking they're all gonna be leaving and going home in their cars to their houses in this heat and utilities. And I'm out here and I'm walking one direction and there is nobody else walking in that direction with me today. And it was a very strange feeling to sit across or walk past someone and, and, and see. We are in very, very different places today. And, there was again, as a January start on the registry, there's an online registry where through hikers will register their start dates. There were six people who started on my day, at least on the registry in theory. I met one of them this day and I never met another again. And it's very likely that people start in Jan, think they're going to start in January and they register for it. And then real life happens. And other reasons, there couldn't have been more than 20 to 30 people who truly started in January, at least by my experience and who I met. So we are talking, 99% of these 2200 miles were alone. And this was not what I was expecting at this time. I knew it would be quiet, and I deliberately started in January because I wanted it to be quiet. it was Exceptionally quiet. So a lot of feelings going on, on that day. And we did not have too much planned. I said, look, I'm gonna make it to these places. Here are the shelters. The first few days I'm gonna stay at. At the end of the day, I had my Garmin. I said, I will send you the text that says, I'm okay. And I will reach out to you when I have cell phone signals and check in. But at the end of the day, you can't plan and say, by day five I'll be here. Right. I'll be here by day 100, It doesn't, through hikes don't work that way.

Leslie 30:57

Yeah. going into it with that mentality, I imagine was helpful.

Nicholas 31:02

It's a balance of how much can I plan? Usually no more than five days out with, I just gotta wait and see what happens step by step.

Leslie 31:09

Yeah. So how long did it take into the hike for it to feel real or for that feeling to subside and, this is the new norm.

Nicholas 31:23

Well, like I mentioned, I started at mile minus eight. So first of all, I'm sitting there or rather walking there and saying, man, I'm still in the negatives. so it didn't feel real until I got to mile zero at the plaque first of all. now again, I mentioned I did a lot of running. I was running 15 to 20 miles comfortably a few times a week, so I had good running legs. So actually in my first day it was a 16 mile day. This is probably double what an average unexperienced through hiker is going to do. They're usually at the eight mile mark if, if anything,

Leslie 31:55

okay,

Nicholas 31:55

so I felt good. That was, I think, yet another moment. And there are many moments in the hike where you say to yourself, this is more real. This is more real. I might be able to actually do this. Right? Every single time you're getting a little bit more confident. So across the zero mark, that's a confidence point, right? I get to my shelter. That's a confidence point. I set up my. Sleeping bag. And I'm still so paranoid by the way of mice. I bet. Getting into my, getting into my, stuff, I remember taking my ground sheet, which is just a tarp you lay on to prevent from sharp things and, and dirt and things getting in your sleeping bag. You just lay on a tarp. I kind of took the tarp and tried to fold it over my sleeping bag bottom, not'cause I was cold, just'cause if anything climbs on that, it makes a lot of noise, that tarp noise. And then I got more comfortable with that. and I, I stopped having to wrap a tarp around me because I realized like, okay, look, I, I could handle things if my sleeping bag gets punctured. I do have little patching kits. I've done this before. I know what it's like. Additionally, I got more confident handling my gear. I knew I'm not gonna leave crumbs all over so the mice won't be, attracted to anything in my sleeping bag. Eventually I met a southbound through Hiker who mentioned. Pro tip for any potential through hikers, mouse traps, the old wooden snap traps carry one or two. They're very light. Now I like mice, I like animals. Mice are cute. Okay. But unfortunately, you know, you have to deal with mice before they deal your through hike right out the door. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. By ruining your gear. And so that was yet another confidence point of like, I met someone on the trail, they gave me some great advice. I'm handling it now and doing it. And every little moment you have a little bit more confidence, a little bit more control, to the point in which you cross, you know, mile 1000 and then mile 2000. And at that point you are so relaxed, you feel more normal outside with your house, on your back than you do in a hotel.

Leslie 33:55

Wow.

Nicholas 33:56

So it is truly an accumulation of little wins that make you feel it's real. The other stuff doesn't feel real. So it isn't, it isn't so much one point, but simply an accumulation of moments.

Leslie 34:09

Yeah. Well, that makes me think in season one, I talked with people who were out there living their purpose, and one of the things I learned is, you know, just do something every day. Do one thing that gets you closer to what you're, trying to become And in doing that one thing every day, you're getting confidence. You're building, There's not a big transition point. It is the little things every day.

Nicholas 34:38

And that's exactly what it was. It was an accumulation of one step after another. And then you talk about purpose. There is no clearer purpose on the trail. Okay? It is 2198.4 miles from where you started. And every. 100 feet or so is a white blaze painted on the tree. There is a clear path carved out. There are some bumps. There are a couple places, several places where you might find yourself on your hands and knees, but the path is still clear. So the purpose, you get up and walk in its simplest form. No emails, no text messages, no appointments, no nothing. Okay. You get up, you put your house on your back, and you just walk from that sense. The purpose is crystal clear and it's simply the accumulation of step after step that gets you there It is very different than putting it on a poster, but boy, that statement was in my mind the whole way.

Leslie 35:36

There's something that tells me it is so hard too. Was it ever hard? Like, you know, the days like, Ugh, I don't know if I can do this.

Nicholas 35:46

There's a lot of those days. Now, when you plan for this through hike, there is physical planning, there is financial planning, there is gear planning, and most importantly, there's psychological planning. And one of the most important parts of the psychological planning for me was remember your wises. And a lot of people will forget that. Why am I out here? Okay. And in my case, it's, what did I give up to be out here? Okay. I gave up time with loved ones. I gave up a job and a salary and benefits because this goal meant that much to me. And there are times and were times for me where I had to sit down on the trail and talk to myself about those points out loud. To say, alright, are you going to, you know, your knee hurts you, you only did eight miles. You were supposed to do 12 miles. you fell down and there was literally nothing you could have possibly tripped over. You are frustrated beyond belief. There was a time in the Smokies I had to spike up, ice spikes. They slip over your boot and they grab into the ice for 25 miles. The spikes are, the spikes are great, but they are real tough to have on your shoes for an extended period of time.

Leslie 37:02

miles.

Nicholas 37:02

Wow. They really beat up your feet. Yeah. 25 miles over two days. I didn't take the spikes off. So the, these types of things, you, you have to sit down and you say like, I'm out here because. I gave up X and Y and Z and those are big deals. Okay? Yeah. And, and I care about this that much. So am I really ready to say my knee hurts, my, this, my, that, can I really do this? Like, man, you know, I, I like, am I ever gonna finish this? All these thoughts creep back into your head and you, you, you put your back against your whys and that, that was a critical part of the psychological planning for me. So, plenty of bad days. And remember a lot of people start March and April one back that I didn't have were people, okay. They call it a Tralee. Okay? Your trail family. You meet people in March and April and say like, I like these people. I get along with them, we hike at the same pace, you know, this and that, and like. You get that mental boost right, from people just being around you and be like, Hey, you can make it. You can do this. Let's all do it together. There's a lot of camaraderie there. I didn't have that. Right. Which became that much more important for my wise.

Leslie 38:13

Right. Did you go into it anticipating the psychological side of it, and did you plan for that beforehand?

Nicholas 38:24

I knew it was coming out. Like I said, it was quieter than I thought. But not in such a way that I was entirely bowled over. Mm-hmm. Now, a big way that I planned for this was running, as I mentioned, 15 to 20 miles confidently, comfortably. That's hours of running. And I didn't have a running partner or anything like it. Okay. That's hours in your head where your body's just moving and you gotta find something to do in your mind, and whether that's talk out loud or listen to music or what have you. So I had extensive, and we're talking, you know, thousands of miles of running over the, last two or three years that I had been training for this. I was comfortable psychologically from that sense to be like, all right, I am gonna talk to myself. If somebody does come around the corner, it's gonna look a bit weird. And as I progressed by the way, and the beard got longer and so forth, you really look weird. I knew what I had signed up for. I knew I was gonna be alone. I was comfortable, with my gear and yep. There's still a level of inherent risk there. Of, but what if, what if, what if, okay, well, what if I have my, I have my gear. I know it's warm enough down to negative temperatures, which would be unusual even in the Smokies to get that low. I have my garin for an emergency. I have food. I have, I always kept my water, probably too much water debatably, but whatever it took to make me comfortable to know that in the worst of the worst situations, barring a freak accident, which yep. Could always happen. But that's called inherent risk. Mm-hmm. That I, I, I could be as prepared as possible.

Leslie 39:56

Did your whys evolve or grow while you were out there?

Nicholas 40:02

I think a little bit, yeah. the easiest example is just the miles started getting less, okay? Mm-hmm. And at some point, I remember I called my old boss from a, a couple jobs ago around mile 700, or so, which, was in, into Virginia. And, he said, you're gonna do this. You've put in 700 miles now you're gonna get to the end of this. So I, I think purely from just, just just a mile perspective, that first piece comes to mind is like, okay, why? Because I've done 700 of it already, so I'm gonna do the next 10 and the next 20. the second why is, is a little bit deeper, I think. there is a type of connection that, you know, more eloquent people will describe a lot better. But there is a degree of simplicity, a degree of comfort that you achieve after a month or two months out there where there's a, it's a peace of mind. Perhaps. It, it's a state of being perhaps. it's a. A psychological, state of being where you just feel like essentially runner's high, your, your poles are moving in the right way. Your body feels good, your mind feels good, and you just feel like you could go and you're operating like a machine. There were highs that were achieved like that on the hike that I will never achieve anywhere else in my life, even if I am running, even if I am working. And so there is a certain degree of intangible accomplishment, achievement, and comfort that you attain on the trail. It does become a little bit of a why to say, I, I feel I feel something different out here and I want to continue trying to feel that as much as I possibly can.

Leslie 41:43

yeah, absolutely.

Nicholas 41:45

Yeah.

Leslie 41:45

So I imagine, the person that starts this is not the same as the person that ends.

Nicholas 41:54

You're absolutely right. In more ways than one. Now, here is the physical change that I experienced on the left, is that day one for me.

Leslie 42:06

Okay. Wow.

Nicholas 42:07

And on the right is both the bearded and shaved version, showing the weight loss, the change in hair, the gaunt look. And so, uh. Who I was and who I became physically was, I would say about 40 pounds was lost. And, and weight loss on a trail for anyone can become a very serious issue. So you really gotta watch your weight, loss'cause you are permanently operating on a, calorie deficit. shown here is, a good four or five inches of beard that's all curled up. and again, 40 pounds different. Wow. So you look at yourself and sometimes it's hard to recognize yourself, at all. Now we talk about the mental side as well, You realize after the hike you're gonna see things a lot differently. You're going to approach challenges differently. I said that marathon not a sprint thing. What that really means is, you might have a clearer vision in a longer distance than you previously had, and you will have a little bit more confidence in knowing that if that vision is in fact that clear that every little step will get you there. Mm-hmm. So you take that, you apply it to long-term work projects, you apply it to vision boarding, and you realize you stress out a little bit less. If a step or two was lost along the way, then you normally would've even deadlines and so forth, you have a, you feel like you have a bit more control over it.'cause you said, if I can walk 2200 miles, right, I can plan for X, I can plan for y, I can control this. Right. So I think the way you anticipate challenges, is a big, is a big win coming off. Yeah. The hike for, for sure. Now there are some drawbacks, as well. Most of the time people will go back to their lives. There were people I met on the trail who did not, and they said, you know what? This is for me. There were people who got all the way to kain, 2200 miles, and they turned around.

Leslie 44:14

Wow.

Nicholas 44:14

And it, and it put it into perspective to see someone who said, you know what? I don't want to go back to society. And for whatever reasons there were, I just want to keep hiking. And that was fascinating to see. Now, reason I bring that up is some of the drawbacks. you have that feeling too when you go back to work and you do question, should I have stayed out there? Should I have been those people? You get a kind of thousand yard stare

Leslie 44:38

really,

Nicholas 44:39

when you're looking at a project and a PowerPoint or an offer letter. You're looking at retirement funds and try to manage things. And you just sort of go off and you're like, there was a day where. You know, a Motel six felt like a four seasons, and I was happy just to sit in a shelter, in a sleeping bag and, and make my breakfast out of, a can of water that I pulled from the river and treated, always treat your water. and, some oatmeal packets, you know, and that was just a simpler time. So trail depression, is a real thing, but you have to make a conscious effort. The hike doesn't end when you hit katata, you have to make a conscious effort to take the positive lessons you've learned and apply them to your work.

Leslie 45:17

Yeah.

Nicholas 45:18

Wherever you can.

Leslie 45:19

Yeah. Well, and what I heard there is your view changed from going in to where you came out, things. Got put in a different perspective. And the reclamation into the world. now your norm is surrounded by nature. It's being in silence, in dark.

Nicholas 45:44

Mm-hmm.

Leslie 45:44

And then you come out of that and there's this reclamation. Had you planned for that in the same way that you planned for the hike?

Nicholas 45:56

there wasn't much I could do for planning on that. I knew it would hit, I didn't know how hard it would hit. And remember at the start of the hike, you're just taking it day by day. You cannot guarantee you'll finish and statistically you won't in relation to the number of people who complete it versus who don't complete it. And so you have a very short term mindset as to getting through the next day and then suddenly it's over. And you realize like you do have to adjust. And you did. You did do it. And all that worry that you wouldn't do it was for naught. But at the time, that's all you could focus on. And so. You have to let that kind of wash over you in a way you do distract yourself a little bit by saying things like, how am I gonna put this on my resume? And it is on my resume at the very end, it's the very last bullet. because I'm proud of it, right? And I have plenty of lessons that I have learned from it that I can apply and do apply to work. But thinking like, how am I gonna put this on my resume? And just sending out the job applications and talking to people about it and so forth are all kind of different distractions from that thousand yard stare kind of mindset that you know is gonna come in in one way or another. and so you do struggle a little bit to connect with some people, as well, but I, I wish I had a better answer for it other than be prepared, trail depression is real and it will hit you.

Leslie 47:13

Yeah. So what's next?

Nicholas 47:17

What's next? Right. Well, it's a great question. I ask myself a lot and I ask others too. What is your hike? What are you working towards in that long term where, you know, your excuses will come and go, but at the end of the day, it's inevitable. I try to live as many miniature lives as I can while still maintaining a degree of responsible and measured, approaches to it. And so I have a few different hikes going on, and I'm working through a biography of each US president in order, okay? Mm-hmm. And I'm, I'm up to Martin Van Buren and Spoiler, it is a dry readed. It's a difficult one, right? But that's the type of stuff that I enjoy taking on now to say, okay, I'm gonna make it through all these books. I recently built my own computer. It was another kind of, something I always wanted to do a whole desktop computer and all the lights and everything and all the, you know, bells and whistles. And so I try to, I, I try to always have. Another hike that I'm, I'm working towards because in a way I've sort of established this, a little bit of an addiction to the journey that I was on with the hike, the multi-year journey to say like, keep doing that, right? Keep doing that. And that, that feels in a way, like achieving a better purpose than I had before the hike, which is really, the romanticization of the journey that I have been on. And it is romanticizing because it was lots of difficult parts of the hike and lots of parts I don't like to talk about and the list goes on. But at the end of the day, it was the greatest personal achievement of my life and I want to replicate that in whatever fashion that I can in, in my life going forward.

Leslie 48:54

Yeah, I love that.

Nicholas 48:57

Yeah.

Leslie 48:57

What advice do you have for people who may be listening that. Going back to the intro that are like, you know, I really always wanted to do this and I wanna do this, but, you know, insert all the excuses. What advice do you have for them?

Nicholas 49:12

Like I mentioned, talk to people, read books about it. Don't retaliate. When someone pokes the bear, they're not saying you're not doing it, are you? You're gonna check it out, aren't you? No. View someone else's interest in your passion or your vision as curiosity and embrace it and use it as a way to say, I want to be more accountable to this vision because I want, or, I see that others have a vested interest in this. Plan. Micro steps. Okay. Like I mentioned, I was on the trail. I made it real. I sat in an Appalachian Trail shelter and just experienced it, envisioned it. So take your end vision and chop it into those tiny little bits, okay? Even no matter how small, no matter how small they are, and go stand out there, hold it, view it, see someone else who's done it, talk to someone else who's done it. Whatever your proverbial hike is, what are the micro bits that you could break it into and actually tangibly experience to keep it relevant. Those are, those are some of my, those are some of my thoughts there.

Leslie 50:21

Love it. Anything else left unsaid?

Nicholas 50:26

I think we've covered it. I think that anybody thinking, about this hike, I hope you embrace it and I hope that my hike has inspired others to dust it off. Whatever goal, whatever vision was your hike. I hope that this inspires you to get back at it, keep it relevant, and get out there one day and take the first step.

Leslie 50:55

Awesome. If anyone wants to reach out to you, what would be the best way for them to connect with you?

Nicholas 51:01

You can find me, Nicholas Lawrence on LinkedIn would be the most easy way to reach me

Leslie 51:07

Love it. And I will drop, uh, that information in the show notes for anyone who's interested. Nicholas, thank you so much for being on the show, for sharing your story and for inspiring us to, find our hike and to, hike our hike every day.

Nicholas 51:27

Love it. Thank you very much, Leslie.

Leslie 51:29

As I reflect on this conversation with Nicholas, there are two things that stand out. The first is that excuses are always going to be there. There will always be a reason to wait. There will always be a reason to push something off to some day, but what Nicholas shows us is that if we don't let delays. Turn into doubt if we continue to believe that we will do that thing one day, and we keep taking small steps in that direction, eventually, someday becomes today. And second, no matter what it is, we all need something that lights us up. Something that feels equal, parts exciting, and a little bit daunting. Something that challenges us, stretches us, calls us forward. For Nicholas, it was his through hike, but as he talks about, he always wants to have a through hike, and I love how he talked about poking the bear. That idea of nudging the thing within yourself and allowing others to nudge it too. When we do that, we start to test the idea. We start to get closer to it. We let it grow just enough that eventually we can't ignore the thing anymore. Nicholas, thank you for being on Purpose Project, and thanks to all of you for tuning in. Keep listening to your rhythm and don't be afraid to nudge the thing that's been calling you. Purpose Project is brought to you for education and for entertainment purposes. This podcast is not intended to replace the advice that you would receive from a licensed therapist or doctor or any other qualified professional.