S3E5: The Obstacle Is The Way With Michele Meyer

Host Leslie Pagel interviews her friend Michele Meyer about living “to the beat of your own drum” and pushing against social norms. Michele attributes her assertiveness to impatience and self-reliance. She paid her own way through college, then joined the Peace Corps for nearly two and a half years, working in sustainable agriculture and environmental education with kids and farmers. Michele discusses gender and work as a woman in road construction. She emphasizes moving forward despite fear, practicing daily kindness and interconnectedness, and not letting social norms define one’s reality—“be the author of your own life.” 

00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro

00:57 Pushing Social Norms

04:16 Wild Childhood Freedom

06:54 Catholic School Clash

10:07 Choosing Peace Corps

14:00 Life in Nicaragua

16:04 Parents Reaction and Support

18:07 Women in the Workplace

22:47 Street Cred in Construction

23:31 Intimidation as Advantage

24:16 Always Moving Forward

25:45 Fear Fight or Flight

26:38 Gut Instinct vs Planning

29:20 Contentment and Retirement

30:40 Dark Period and Purpose

32:46 Choosing Change to Survive

34:16 Interconnectedness and Kindness

38:20 Smiling Leadership Style

39:15 Rejecting Social Norm Scripts

41:15 Stoic Closing Reflection

Purpose Project is a research study on the topic of life’s purpose. You can follow along in the making of Purpose Project:

Instagram: @purpose.project

LinkedIn: @purposeproject-media

TikTok: @purpose.project

Purpose Project is a research study on the topic of living life's purpose. You can follow along in the making of Purpose Project:
Instagram: @purpose.project
LinkedIn: @purposeproject-media
TikTok: @purpose.project

Captions are auto-generated. 

Transcript

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Leslie 0:04

Welcome back to Purpose Project. I'm Leslie Pagel, and this season we're exploring what it means to live life to the beat of our own drum. Today's episode is a little bit different because my guest is not just someone that I admire. She is also someone that I call a friend. In this episode, I sit down with Michele Meyer. Michele is one of those people who moves through life with the kind of freedom. That's hard to miss. And over the years, I've often found myself in awe of that, but I've never asked her how she does it until now. Let's take a listen. Michele, thank you for coming on Purpose Project. I am really looking forward to our conversation. Because we've never had a conversation about this in our friendship. And so let's just dive in. Alright, let's do it. First question is, how might people say that you push up against social norms?

Michele 1:05

I guess I just do what I want and it's not to be spiteful or to be difficult.

Leslie 1:17

Right.

Michele 1:17

I think that when I examine my life, one of my biggest problems, and maybe one of my superpowers is that I have zero patience for anything. And so I just run outta patience. And so I, I'm probably would be described as being assertive and dominant and maybe even aggressive, like, professionally, but it's just because I have no patience. And I can't stand for people to be indecisive or not make up their minds or not do what they're supposed to do. Yeah. And so my impatience just kind of makes me like speak out and try to get the ball rolling. Like herding cats.

Leslie 2:03

Yeah.

Michele 2:04

I guess I'm not a demure. Soft-spoken woman, but it's not like, I'm not like that on the inside. It's just I have no patience and so I just wanna just keep moving forward through life. And if people get in my way, I push 'em outta the way I guess. Just keep going. But I think it's more to have to do with just not having any patience

Leslie 2:28

I think

Michele 2:29

so.

Leslie 2:29

So I, okay, that makes sense.

Michele 2:33

But that's my own self reflection.

Leslie 2:35

But I, when I look back in to moments that you have shared with me about your childhood and even, what you went to college for in your job now, like you're, you work in construction, a woman in construction, like that's, that's not the norm.

Michele 2:54

No,

Leslie 2:55

I guess

Michele 2:55

it's

Leslie 2:56

and it sounds like from your perspective. That you are being impatient. It can't just be the only thing.

Michele 3:08

I've always had an attitude, I guess, but I don't, I'm not like in a bad way. You know, I've always felt very comfortable to speak my mind and I was raised that way.

Leslie 3:17

Okay.

Michele 3:18

and even though traditionally my mom probably wouldn't be seen as a feminist, but she kind of raised me to be my own person. Regardless of my gender or regardless of my situation.

Leslie 3:31

Yeah.

Michele 3:31

I've just kind of grown up just not taking crap, I guess, for people and just plowing ahead.

Leslie 3:38

Yeah.

Michele 3:39

if an obstacle gets in my way, either I divert around it and deal with it later, or I just crash through it.

Leslie 3:45

I wanna peel back some of this because. So you've mentioned your mom, helped raise you to just not let anything stand in your way mm-hmm. And not have any limitations, it sounds like. So that to me says, as a child, you're growing up and you're, a allowing for whatever you want.

Michele 4:08

Mm-hmm.

Leslie 4:09

Which is not always what social norms are about. Right. Right. Was there something in your childhood that gave you the courage, I guess to

Michele 4:23

So growing up, I had very few boundaries. And I kind of just ran feral in a way. Mm-hmm. You know, just like as being a young child, you know, in the neighborhood playing with friends. I didn't have any limitations, like behind our houses, as a forest. As a child, it was humongous. You know? Now I don't even know if it exists anymore. The neighborhood probably grew, you know, through it.

Leslie 4:52

Uhhuh.

Michele 4:52

but none of the other little girls on my street were allowed to go in the woods. I was the only little girl that was allowed to do whatever I wanted.

Leslie 4:59

Right.

Michele 5:00

And so I ended up, playing with the boys 'cause they were allowed to go in the woods, and so. we built forts and that was my childhood was being in the woods, either by myself or with the boys in the neighborhood, but mostly by myself, I just loved to go in the woods and I would have my own adventures. I would, take some bread in a little bag, and I loved to pretend like I was like Laura Les or an Indian or just alone in the woods. I just loved that. And when you play like that. you know, there were times that I climbed trees and half fell outta trees and was hanging by a ranch by one hand, and there was nobody to help me, you know? Yeah. And you just learn how to like, figure it out, right, right. And not get hurt, you know, or, or whatever. And so I, I was always allowed to develop my own self-reliance, and problem solving skills. And just be wild. And you know, I don't think kids really get that opportunity anymore. Right. So I think that that was a big part of it. I am happy, happiest in the woods and in nature. I feel at home there. I'm very thankful. For my parents for that. And they raised my brother the same way. We lived in a different house and it was different woods, but my brother, you know, would always play in the woods by himself. And they would let him take chainsaws in the woods when he was like nine, 10 years old to like build a trail. He's like, whatever. I don't even how he survived, but we did. and I think it made us better for it, but, so those skills were developed real early.

Leslie 6:37

Yeah. You said we didn't have any boundaries. And I'm wondering at what point, or if at any point did you discover that there are boundaries, oh, surrounding me that I just, I didn't know existed?

Michele 6:54

I guess, when I was in the fourth grade, we moved and ended up in a Catholic school, and I think that was the first time I kind of came up against like boundaries in life and in beliefs. I didn't like it, right. I didn't like the teachings. I didn't like what the sisters, the nuns taught us.

Leslie 7:15

Mm-hmm.

Michele 7:16

In fourth grade, my fourth grade teacher told us that all Native Americans go to hell because they're heathens and they don't believe in God and they all go to hell. And

Leslie 7:27

when I was a little girl, I wanted to be an Indian so

Michele 7:29

bad.

Leslie 7:29

Right.

Michele 7:30

And that really stuck with me. And that was kind of the first time I started questioning, I guess society and social norms, I guess.

Leslie 7:39

Yeah.

Michele 7:39

I was like in

Leslie 7:40

fourth grade.

Michele 7:41

Yeah. I was like, that is not what I believe. And instead of my beliefs changing, they got stronger. And I really started to question all of that stuff and, and at a very young age, probably, well, fifth. Was it sixth grade, seventh grade when you do Catholic confirmation? I can't remember. But at, at that point I was like, I mean, I went through with the sacrament 'cause it was important to my parents. But I did not believe in any of that and did not want to be molded by any of that. so that was a

Leslie 8:16

big, did your parents know this?

Michele 8:17

not really. You know, it never really felt like they, would understand

Leslie 8:22

Uhhuh,

Michele 8:23

but it was all kinds of things. It was science and, and things that my parents didn't believe in, you know? And I remember bringing home, like National Geographic magazines that talked about, you know, early humans and hominids and I, I was fascinated by archeology and ancient peoples. And, you know, my parents are like, well, that's not what you're taught, you know, that's not what God teaches us. I was so confused by all of that because science and, you know, all those things really appealed to me. so I was like, okay, whatever. I'll just do my own thing and believe in what I want, you know? I mean, I didn't need to change their opinions. But it didn't need to be mine. So those were some revelations I had as a pretty young child.

Leslie 9:06

So it's interesting to me because in some ways it sounds like your childhood. No boundaries. go explore, be self-sufficient, be able to solve problems, but at the same time, your parents had beliefs that were, that you were learning or different from your own. It's like you were also developing your own beliefs at a very young age about big things in life.

Michele 9:40

Yeah. it just, the, you know, things just spoke to me, you know, and, and I just didn't understand why the things that were like in my heart that I thought were good, were not good, you know, growing up in That kind of religious, background, and my mom sowed the seeds of all of this. But then once when I started to kind of. Come up with my own ideas, then it was scary because it weren't exactly like theirs. Right. You know? like my decision after I graduated from college to join the Peace Corps, they were not a fan of that.

Leslie 10:14

I would love to learn a little bit more about how you got to the Peace Corps too, because I do think, it's a example of you marching to what's in your heart and your soul.

Michele 10:25

Mm-hmm.

Leslie 10:26

And, the reason why Season three of Purpose Project exists is because I believe people hold back on their purpose because of social norms.

Michele 10:38

it, it's like, I, it's not that I. Do that on purpose.

Leslie 10:42

Right?

Michele 10:42

I just, I'm just annoyed with everything that's going on around me and I just don't wanna do my own thing, but damn to everybody else, I guess. Yeah. You know?

Leslie 10:51

Yeah.

Michele 10:52

you know, it's just, I don't know how another way to be really.

Leslie 10:55

Well, tell us about the Peace Corps. I cut you off. You're gonna mention, you were saying how your decision to go into the Peace Corps was something that they didn't want.

Michele 11:05

So when I was graduating from college, well back up, they didn't really want me to go to college. Oh. They felt that doing a, a trade school or something less expensive, would be a better option for me. Neither one of them went to college. They did trade schools. and I really wanted to go to college 'cause I loved learning.

Leslie 11:24

Mm-hmm.

Michele 11:25

And I just wanted to continue to learn. So my parents, said that if I wanted to go to college, that was gonna be my decision and I would have to pay for it. So I paid for all of my college by myself. when I was finishing up college at Ball State, I wasn't quite ready to get a real job. I wasn't done on. You know, having adventures. And I just, I wasn't ready for whatever that next step was. It just, I, I didn't even know what I wanted to be, you know? Mm-hmm. I didn't know what to do, you know, kind of, not that I felt lost, I just felt like there needed to be another step and no one around me had that step for me. Right. And so I felt like I needed to do something, and I really just wanted to go on a big adventure somewhere.

Leslie 12:09

Yeah.

Michele 12:09

And so I looked into a couple of different options. I looked into teaching English in Japan,

Leslie 12:14

Uhhuh,

Michele 12:15

but that those programs became so popular that you actually had to know Japanese as well. Oh. Which I did not know. So I was like, oh, that's not gonna work. so I was like, well, what about that Peace Corps? You know, like go on a big adventure with the Peace Corps. And at Ball State, nobody knew how to apply for the Peace Corps. There wasn't anybody at Ball State in the International Studies or anything.

Leslie 12:37

Wow.

Michele 12:38

They were like, well, we have no idea how you applied for the Peace Corps. So I had to figure that out.

Leslie 12:43

I'm gonna figure it out.

Michele 12:44

I know, I did.

Leslie 12:44

charged my course.

Michele 12:45

Yeah. So I applied for the Peace Corps and so I graduated Ball State in April and I left for the Peace Corps on January 2nd, that following year.

Leslie 12:55

Wow.

Michele 12:56

and my parents were. Somewhat horrified that I wanted to do that. It was more because, okay, well now you have a college degree, now you're supposed to get a job and start making money. The social

Leslie 13:07

norms.

Michele 13:07

Yeah. And get married and have kids and all of those things. And I was all like, I don't know. No, no, that sounds great. So they were disappointed. and then they were also kind of scared 'cause it was scary to them to think about me, you know, leaving the country and you don't get to choose where you go. so it was late summer when I got my papers that I was going to Nicaragua. Yeah. And my parents were horrified again. Right. Down to Central America, due to the, the Soviet presence and the nuclear threat and all of those things. So that was my parents' idea of Nicaragua. it was sort of mine too. I was like, oh, this is gonna be interesting. so I left, I went down there and I was down there for almost two and a half years and absolutely loved it. Absolutely loved it. I mean, it was really hard,

Leslie 13:56

right.

Michele 13:56

absolutely loved it. so happy they did it.

Leslie 14:00

What were you doing there for two and a half years?

Michele 14:01

in the Peace Corps they have different sectors and there are different sectors depending on the region or the country. Mm-hmm. and at that time, so this was in 97, 19 97, the Peace Corps had only been back in the country for, five or six years since the Civil War. So we were the 15th group. Back in the country and they were doing about three groups a year, so it'd been about five years. And, my group was Sustainable Agriculture and Environmental Education.

Leslie 14:34

Okay.

Michele 14:35

So I did both of those things in my village. So I worked with kids and I also worked with farmers, on, More natural farming techniques mm-hmm. That were less, chemical intensive. And in countries like that, they use a lot of herbicides and pesticides that are not allowed in the developed world because they're extremely dangerous to the environment and people and

Leslie 14:58

Right.

Michele 14:59

So, you know, trying to help people come up with different solutions. but I mostly worked with kids. And, I absolutely loved it.

Leslie 15:05

Oh

Michele 15:05

yeah, so the kids were great. and so I, I did some science and environmental education, classroom work in the elementary schools in my village, but then I also worked with the Sanda organization that, went out into the smaller communities, isolated communities, and did work on like public health. and education and things like that. So I tagged along with that organization and worked in even more rural, settlements. These were even smaller than villages. Like they have a Well, yeah, a school house or a room for school. and I would go out and do science, natural resource, Kind of lessons, fun stuff with the kids. Yeah. You know, they didn't have textbooks or anything, so even just bringing books out to these communities and sitting around in a circle and reading books together was a big thing. For a lot of these kids. So, but no, it was great. It was fantastic. Absolutely love it.

Leslie 16:03

Yeah. So you mentioned your parents were disappointed with you wanting to go to college and then disappointed, with the Peace Corps. When you think back to that, how did their disappointment make you feel?

Michele 16:19

I really didn't care.

Leslie 16:21

Okay.

Michele 16:21

I mean, I'm sorry. You know? Right. Like, that's not what you wanted for me,

Leslie 16:26

Uhhuh.

Michele 16:27

So do my own thing. Again, I just don't really care, I guess. I mean, I'm not hurting anybody.

Leslie 16:33

Right.

Michele 16:33

I'm not like doing anything.

Leslie 16:34

Absolutely right.

Michele 16:35

So like why should I care if they're disappointed?

Leslie 16:38

Right.

Michele 16:39

You know?

Leslie 16:39

How did their disappointment look to you? Was it just words or were they pleading?

Michele 16:45

No, it was just more like just, I, I think it was their concern for me, both my safety but also. You need to like be a grownup and Right. Start making money and, you know, those kind of things. So, you know, I, I wasn't like I was offended by it, you know, it's just that I was doing my own thing Right. They didn't approve.

Leslie 17:08

Well, and I mean, you paid for your own college, so it's not like you needed their

Michele 17:13

mm-hmm.

Leslie 17:13

Approval or support or any of it. No.

Michele 17:16

No.

Leslie 17:16

how did their perception evolve after you left for the Peace Corps and after you were there?

Michele 17:24

Well, once I was there, I think they felt a lot better about it,

Leslie 17:27

Uhhuh,

Michele 17:27

I was in constant communication with my parents. so that helped too. and so once email became a thing, which came about shortly after I. and I wasn't able to email in my village, but at least once a week I either called or they got an email from me or something. and they were fine with it. I mean, my parents are good people, they were pleased that I decided to donate part of my life to help other people. were very supportive of they just were look out for me.

Leslie 17:56

Yeah.

Michele 17:56

They were just being parents.

Leslie 17:57

worried.

Michele 17:57

Yeah.

Leslie 17:57

were just being

Michele 17:58

parents.

Leslie 17:58

Yeah.

Michele 17:59

And I was just being the stubborn kid, you know, doing my own thing. But, you know, I didn't feel upset that they were upset, you know? I understood.

Leslie 18:07

One of the reasons why I was so excited to have you on is I see you living your life to the beat of your own drum. You're not letting social norms sway you. But I'm curious from your perspective, do you ever see, getting pushed up against social norms and it having an impact on

Michele 18:31

With my different parts of my career over the years? You know, one thing that being a woman, obviously it does affect your career. I mean, it can't not, you know, I try not to make that an excuse, you know, like, so my first job outta college, before I went into the Peace Corps, I got a job in an environmental engineering firm, and my direct supervisor was woman. She hadn't been there very long. She wasn't happy there, and she made it very clear to me that, She's like, after you leave this job, don't ever let anybody pay you less because you're a woman. And I, I didn't quite understand that exactly at the time, but then I, I found out that I was getting paid seven 50 an hour with a college degree in a related field. My counterpart, which was male, did not have a college degree working the same job and was getting paid three times what I was getting paid. And and I knew it was just a temporary job, right? Because I knew I was going to the Peace Corps. They didn't know that, but I knew it, you know, when I took the job, I knew it was just gonna be for, you know, five or six months. But I was like, oh, this is a real thing.

Leslie 19:50

Right.

Michele 19:51

And she, had a master's degree and was getting paid a quarter of what her male counterpart was getting paid. and so I, I really took that to heart, you know, I was like, okay, I'm gonna take that little thing and I'm gonna put it somewhere because I'm not gonna let that ever affect my career.

Leslie 20:09

Right.

Michele 20:09

I mean, being a woman in a man's world, you know, but I, I've just never, ever, ever thought that being a woman was in any way a detriment or an obstacle to anything I ever wanted to do. and I don't think it's ever been a pay issue either, and a lot of it's because I've worked a lot of government jobs and obviously you get equal pay. Mm-hmm. It doesn't matter if you're a man or woman, for your job, but, I, I've never really. Like if something doesn't work out, either I deal with it or I move on and get another job. I'm not ever gonna let something like hold me up. You know? and so like in my current. Work when I, I've been working in construction for over 10 years now. and I've had this question a lot by either other women or, or even men, you know, like, how do you work in that industry as a woman, Uhhuh? And I'm like, what difference does it make? You know, I don't, you know, I don't think, no, there's not a lot of women. There's not, and when I see another girl on the construction site, it's like two dogs that see each other at a dog park. They're like, oh, there's a dog. Oh my God, my God, there's a dog. There's a dog. I gotta go see him. You know? And I'm like, oh, there's a girl. Look, there's a girl. so, and that respect, it's different, obviously, Uhhuh because I'm a girl, but other than that, I, it isn't, has nothing to do with anything.

Leslie 21:27

Right.

Michele 21:28

Despite what movies make you think of construction workers that are a bunch of sexist pigs whistling at women. They're not really like that. Yeah. By any means. And and out of all the different types of work I've done in my life, this has been the most male centered and the field that I feel the most respected

Leslie 21:52

Really?

Michele 21:53

Yeah. A lot of my other positions were more female dominated, dominated industries, or, you know, working in government, working in parks departments and things like that. And, I really, you know, when I walk into a room or go to a meeting or walk out on my job site, I, I don't feel disadvantaged. I feel respected. And I'm treated that way.

Leslie 22:17

Yeah. Did you have to earn that respect or was that there at the very beginning?

Michele 22:25

Yes and no. because there's not a lot of women in construction. Most women are in management supervis roles. So in that respect, just being a woman automatically I am in some sort of authority.

Leslie 22:41

Okay.

Michele 22:41

Does that make sense

Leslie 22:43

In their mind? Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Michele 22:45

so that helps.

Leslie 22:46

Yeah.

Michele 22:47

and then for part of my career in construction, I actually worked for the Department of Transportation. And in that role I developed, training that a lot of contractors had to take.

Leslie 23:03

Okay.

Michele 23:04

So when I left and got and went into the private sector, I already had street cred, uhhuh. So a lot of the players. In road construction, knew me, knew my name, and knew I knew stuff and that the stuff I knew was helpful to them and it was stuff they needed to know or they needed to know somebody who knew it, so I kind of walked onto the scene with some street cred. Nice. And my attitude, and while I think it's funny that I am often. By other men described as being rather intimidating? I think it's hilarious because I don't feel like in any sort of way I'm an intimidating person.

Leslie 23:51

Right. I know. And I don't feel that either. It makes me laugh too,

Michele 23:55

but you know, it's like even though I'm not a mom, I'm a mom out there and I can give those guys a stink eye and they know I'm pissed. And they know what they need to do. Right. And they're like, yes ma'am. We'll get it done. it it's almost an advantage. Yeah. I think it's an advantage,

Leslie 24:14

yeah.

Michele 24:14

a woman in my career.

Leslie 24:16

As you're talking, the one thing going through my head is Michele just has clarity in what she wants and how she wants to be in life. and maybe that is also a place where people struggle is in that clarity. Mm-hmm. Do you feel clear with

Michele 24:38

Yeah. I feel like just moving in the direction I need to move in.

Leslie 24:42

Yeah.

Michele 24:43

You don't always know. Yeah. I just think you just keep moving forward. You know, like if you run into something, then you move around it. Keep going. I, I don't, I don't have the patience to let things stop me and make me feel like I don't know what to do. like if you're at home, you're home on the weekends, you're cleaning up, you get like sidetracked a hundred million times mm-hmm. By like, oh, but I can always come back and, and finish the tasks that Right. You know, I set out to do. and so yeah, you get turned around and pulled in directions and run into obstacles, but you just jump over 'em or move around 'em you know, run the other way and then get back on course. Then just keep moving

Leslie 25:24

forward. It's a mindset. And have you always had this mindset? Mm-hmm.

Michele 25:27

Yeah.

Leslie 25:28

Yeah,

Michele 25:28

because like anything that has ever tried to stop me, it doesn't stop me Right. Is what I'm saying.

Leslie 25:33

Yeah.

Michele 25:34

I just keep moving and figure it out.

Leslie 25:36

Right.

Michele 25:37

I, I'm not like plagued by indecision and don't know what to do and, and, you know, scared to do something or whatever.

Leslie 25:45

So you don't have fear?

Michele 25:48

I do, well, I mean, yeah, I have self-doubt and fear, but I just, I feel like I can't stop moving forward. You know? and I understand when people do get stuck in that and they can't move, you know, just like being scared to death and not, you know, so like if something scares you, some people will just freeze. I run. Or I fight you know, I'm not gonna freeze. Either I'm gonna like throw a punch or I'm gonna run, you know, but I'm not gonna stand there and freeze

Leslie 26:15

uhhuh,

Michele 26:17

and, and that's just probably my personality. Yeah. You know, I don't know if you can, some people are just gonna freeze.

Leslie 26:24

Yeah. Yes, I think so. And yeah, I just, the thing that's going through my head is. You're, you don't let fear hold you back. You're always moving forward. When you move forward, is it a calculated forward or are you just like,

Michele 26:45

I'm just like,

Leslie 26:46

it's instinctual.

Michele 26:47

Yeah. Which is probably not the best way to go through life. I mean, sometimes I just, you know, feel like I'm an out of control car. Just but I'm gonna keep going.

Leslie 26:58

Well, someone said that, When it comes to consciousness, there's two types. There's the, like the intellectual, the studying, but then there's the, the instinctual, like

Michele 27:09

the reptile brain.

Leslie 27:10

And it seems like you operate more like a gut level. do you spend time to tune in to your gut and your instincts?

Michele 27:21

I think one of my flaws is not thinking things through sometimes.

Leslie 27:27

Mm-hmm.

Michele 27:27

Because I just plow ahead. You go.

Leslie 27:29

Yeah.

Michele 27:29

yeah. And so sometimes I have to remind myself to like, just take a second, think about this before you just plow into me. Right.

Leslie 27:35

Yeah.

Michele 27:36

and as I get older, that becomes a little easier, I guess.

Leslie 27:40

Mm-hmm.

Michele 27:41

It makes you kinda like, Hey, maybe. Think about this for a second before I run my mouth or like, whatever. Right? And so that's, you know, a constant battle I have.

Leslie 27:51

When you're plowing ahead, is that coming from your gut? Is it just like, I just know what I need to do type thing? Because you're not thinking, you're not like putting a plan together. No. It's just you're reacting to what. Something in your body is telling you.

Michele 28:10

Yeah,

Leslie 28:10

is a way around,

Michele 28:11

it's probably not the best way to approach it.

Leslie 28:13

know,

Michele 28:16

but I mean, it's got me in trouble. Probably will continue to get me in trouble.

Leslie 28:20

Oh yeah.

Michele 28:21

But you know, again, that's just something I'm trying to do more often. It's just take a second think before you say something or send that email or whatever it is. Right. Like you don't have to be. A hundred percent in your reptile brain all the time, Uhhuh, you know, 'cause that can get you in trouble, obviously.

Leslie 28:39

Yeah. But I think the opposite is true too. I do think sometimes people get so frozen and they get so much into the logical thinking side and then don't ever move. Mm-hmm. So it's a balance, I guess.

Michele 28:58

is.

Leslie 28:59

And I think the balancing can be really hard. Like how do you know when to lean in on the instincts? Like the gut versus

Michele 29:08

Yeah,

Leslie 29:08

the thinking.

Michele 29:09

Yeah. I guess when you don't, you know, you made the wrong choice

Leslie 29:14

after the fact.

Michele 29:14

And then experience just helps you make a better decision next time.

Leslie 29:19

Yeah. So when you think, about where your life is headed what do you see for you in the future?

Michele 29:31

I, I'm very content in my current career path. I really like it. I don't, you know, because I'm 52 now, the next step I guess is retirement, whenever that is. Mm-hmm. And I'm fine with everything the way it is until I get to that next stage in my life. Yeah. So, I guess the, I have no plans on changing anything because that change is inevitable at some point. You know, on the horizon.

Leslie 30:01

Mm-hmm.

Michele 30:01

So just kind of keeping everything going. The same way it's going until ready for that next step.

Leslie 30:08

when I hear you say that, in my mind I'm thinking Michele is just living every day of her life. Instead of like this working towards this. And I mean, not that you're not doing that.

Michele 30:24

Yeah.

Leslie 30:24

I have a constant, like almost a daily conversation with myself about what am I supposed to be doing, with my life.

Michele 30:33

Mm-hmm.

Leslie 30:33

Instead of just like, Leslie, just live your life.

Michele 30:38

Well, I mean, everybody kind of has those thoughts. You know, this has been probably 20 years ago, I went through kind of a lonely, dark period of my life and was kind of like, well, what have I done? Like, what is this life that I have? I'm single, I have no kids. I'm not dating anybody. I'm working a job that pays crap. You know, like what? Why is this my life? Right. You know? And then you get into like really dark ideas and I thought, well, you know what? I should have just been like Jane Goodall and just moved to the jungle and studied butterflies or something for the rest of my life. Like at least I would've had something to show for my life. Mm-hmm. You know? And. You can't get into those kind of situations. You know, you don't have to be Jane Goodall. Right. You know what I mean? And you don't have to be like an underpaid government worker, miserable either. You know, you can find some happy median. You know, and so it took a while to get out of that rut and change career focuses and get on a different path. But it's only natural, I think, to get caught up in that. Like, yeah, you know what, what am I doing you know? it's weird because I don't know any other way, but I don't have kids, so I haven't built a life. And have like, oh look, I made this child uhhuh. I helped this child grow to an adult. And you need, you have that to show for. Right. You know, I don't have that. So, so then you kind of feel like, well, what have I been doing with my whole life? You know? But it's not, you don't have to feel that way. I didn't get stuck in that type of thinking. You know, I can contribute, it doesn't have to be, because I've raised a. Biological child, I have other people in my life that I've been able to help and Right. Influence and guide and

Leslie 32:25

mm-hmm.

Michele 32:26

And then have that reciprocated. you don't want to have other people or have society make you feel like you aren't what you should be. Or you've not done what you should have done.

Leslie 32:39

Yeah. So how do you do that? So take us back to the dark days and how did you get out of, out of that?

Michele 32:46

Well, I mean, you just have to make a decision. It's like, am I just gonna be miserable and depressed and hate my life, or am I gonna change it?

Leslie 32:53

Right. You

Michele 32:54

know?

Leslie 32:54

Yeah.

Michele 32:55

it. There's no other option. You don't wanna be miserable.

Leslie 32:58

Yeah.

Michele 32:58

You don't wanna feel useless and worthless. find, another purpose. Find another path. Because as a human being, you have value.

Leslie 33:09

Mm-hmm.

Michele 33:09

And you can contribute. You just have to find that place. And it's not just one place, or one path, or one spot or one person. That evolves through your life. And you can always find a way.

Leslie 33:21

Yeah.

Michele 33:22

You just have to do it. And it's not about being brave or determined, it's just survival. If that's how you need to survive of your spirit, then go for it. make the change. Do something different. Don't stay where you are. Cause you can do whatever you want.

Leslie 33:39

Well, and I think it's a lot about mindset. Because I do think sometimes people are, are happier in their misery than the idea of facing a fear and being courageous. Well, they

Michele 33:58

think that that's easier. Because you, it takes effort to be miserable. As much as it takes effort to not be miserable.

Leslie 34:05

Exactly.

Michele 34:05

And you just have to make the decision on what you want to

Leslie 34:09

be. Yeah. Where do you want your effort to go? Yeah.

Michele 34:12

Just like it takes effort to smile and to frown.

Leslie 34:15

Yeah.

Michele 34:15

Which way do you want to go?

Leslie 34:16

Do, are there certain beliefs that you have that have guided you through life or that are guiding you now?

Michele 34:25

Understand everybody has their own demons and their own things that they're dealing with. You're not the only one, you know what I mean? It's not all about you and your feelings, like, So try to keep that in perspective, and just know that you just have this one life to live.

Leslie 34:44

Yeah.

Michele 34:45

living your own life doesn't just affect you. It affects other people. You know, so keeping that in perspective that, you know, you're a piece of a puzzle, you're a piece of a big puzzle. And, You can't be selfish. Yeah. I mean, you have to be selfish in a way to survive, but you have to know that you affect other people. You kind of live in a spider web of interconnectedness in the universe. You know, everything is connected.

Leslie 35:15

Mm-hmm.

Michele 35:16

and you have a duty to do something with your life and help others in their life. However that is, and it can be the smallest thing. It can be a huge thing, but whatever it is. But you have to live it daily. You can't just, you know, once a year like, oh, I'm gonna, you know, buy some Christmas presents for some, you know, poor kids, you know? No, I mean, you have to, you don't need to have some grand thing that you can show off, you know? I've never been like that kind of person. You just live your life to where. You create kindness and love in your space and in your universe, because that's all connected. And everybody needs that.

Leslie 35:58

Mm-hmm. I love that belief.

Michele 36:01

Yeah.

Leslie 36:03

I would like to think that I practice that, but the idea of being really intentional daily with that. Yes, this is my life. I need to live it to the fullest, but also in a way that elevates those around me. and in making that more of a daily consciousness piece for me,

Michele 36:31

because we're all connected by these tiny little threads. And we can break 'em or we can make 'em stronger.

Leslie 36:36

Lately I've been thinking about, how can I contribute to the evolution of humanity? And that's the making your little thread stronger? Mm-hmm. So that the, the el evolution of that. Decades, centuries from now just continues to mm-hmm. To strengthen.

Michele 36:58

Yeah. it's a hard thing to figure out, you know, and we do that, in our unconscious, does that mm-hmm. Which is really important.

Leslie 37:06

Mm-hmm.

Michele 37:07

Just remembering that everything is connected.

Leslie 37:10

Mm-hmm.

Michele 37:11

And you don't wanna poison the rest of the web. Right. You know, you wanna, like you said, strengthen it.

Leslie 37:16

I don't know why, but when you said that, I immediately thought about how when we bring our negativity with us mm-hmm. everyone can feel that. And they absorb it. Mm-hmm. Too. Yeah. And so it's an example of the connectedness. And so, okay, let's not bring the negativity, let's bring the positivity, the love, the caring, the understanding with us so that people absorb that.

Michele 37:45

Yeah. And, and you do it because you're a very friendly, happy person, you know? And even when you don't feel like that, you know. You just have, it's not like putting on a face or, you know, but you, you just have to say, all right, well I am out there. I need to be positive. Yeah. And not be negative. always approaching everything with a smile. Mm-hmm. You know, and coming into everything in a positive way instead of coming into it negative. the guys at work. They, they always say, they're always like, you just always walk up to us with like this big smile on your face, like you're so happy. And then you start yelling at us. But we don't realize it because smiling, you're so friendly about it. And he's like, and then we're like, oh, okay, we'll do it. But I'm like, well, yeah, if I got outta my truck and put on my hard hat and walked up to him and started cussing him out. 'cause that's how they talk to each other.

Leslie 38:48

Uhhuh.

Michele 38:49

That doesn't work well. And so I do.

38:52

Yeah.

Michele 38:52

And then they

Leslie 38:53

And you get it done.

Michele 38:54

I do. Because I got a smile on my face and then when I get really mad, then they know it.

Leslie 39:04

That's when the side eye comes on.

Michele 39:05

Yes.

Leslie 39:06

Well, I think a point there is we can still be kind and direct To get what we need, oh, for sure. Even in life too.

Michele 39:14

Yeah.

Leslie 39:15

Yeah. What advice do you have for people out there who might be listening that are pushing up against a social norm or, or letting social norms prevent them from pursuing their purpose?

Michele 39:32

Well. Social norms only become a hindrance if you let them. They don't have to be your norm.

Leslie 39:41

Mm-hmm.

Michele 39:42

And so there's no reason why what somebody else says has to be. Has to be your reality.

Leslie 39:50

Yeah.

Michele 39:50

Trying to, to better everything around you. Don't be limited by what society says.

Leslie 39:57

Yeah.

Michele 39:58

You know, there's just no reason for it.

Leslie 40:00

Mm-hmm.

Michele 40:01

it just doesn't make any sense. Yeah. You know, and, and we live in a country where we don't have to follow these societal norms.

Leslie 40:10

Exactly.

Michele 40:10

Yeah.

Leslie 40:11

Right?

Michele 40:11

Why let that limit you? It can be somebody else's norm. It doesn't have to be yours. and you're allowing other people or society to create a script for you to live by.

Leslie 40:22

Mm-hmm.

Michele 40:23

And that seems dangerous. you need to be able to be the author of your own story.

Leslie 40:28

Love that. Yes. Be the author of your own life Anything else that you'd like to share with us?

Michele 40:39

no, nothing I can think of.

Leslie 40:42

I don't think I've ever told you, Michele, but I am in awe of you. I really am. you're just a person that I'm so grateful to have in my life. You're a person that I look at and think, I wanna live my life like Michele. 'cause she's in charge of her life. She is the author of her book. And in some ways I'm learning to be that for myself, but in a lot of ways. I have a long way to go

Michele 41:14

we all do.

Leslie 41:15

and I thank you for being on this show, and As I reflect on this conversation with Michelle, I'm reminded of a quote from Marcus Aurelius, who was one of the five good Roman emperors and stoic philosopher. The quote goes like this, the impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way, becomes the way for many of us obstacles stop us. They cause us to pause, to doubt, or to retreat, but Michelle charges forward. Not recklessly, but intuitively, when something stands in her way, she moves through it. And maybe that's part of what it means to live life to the beat of our own drum. Not waiting for the path to be perfectly clear. Not waiting for permission, but trusting that the very obstacles in front of us. Might be the path itself. Michelle, thank you for your friendship and thank you for joining me on the show. And thanks to all of you for tuning in. Keep listening to your rhythm and trusting that sometimes what stands in the way is actually showing you the way. Purpose Project is brought to you for education and for entertainment purposes. This podcast is not intended to replace the advice that you would receive from a licensed therapist or doctor or any other qualified professional.