Purpose Project

S2E7: It's All About Culture with Jeff Smulyan

• Leslie Pagel • Season 2 • Episode 7

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In this episode of Purpose Project, host Leslie Pagel sits down with Jeff Smulyan, a seasoned CEO and entrepreneur, to discuss the critical role of culture and purpose in the business world. Jeff reflects on a societal shift over the past 50 years towards individual self-interest. Jeff also shares his personal journey, the founding of Emmis Communications, and the company's guiding '11 Commandments' that embody its culture and values. The discussion extends to the broader implications of purpose in society, touching on the collective well-being and the need for a shift away from self-absorption. The episode concludes with reflections on how to instill purpose within businesses and the pivotal role they play in addressing societal challenges.

00:00 Introduction to Episode Seven

01:26 Meet Jeff Smulyan: Personal and Professional Journey

02:42 Defining Life's Purpose

03:33 Purpose in the Business World

05:19 The 11 Commandments of Emmis

09:00 Challenges and Employee Alignment

16:05 Societal Shifts and Collective Wellbeing

24:10 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Welcome to episode seven."It's All About Culture" with Jeff Smulyan. Hi, my name is Leslie Pagel and I am so glad that you found us here on Purpose Project. In this episode, I sit down with Jeff Smulyan. Jeff is a CEO. He's an entrepreneur with decades of experiences leading organizations. In this episode, Jeff talks about a shift that he's seen in society over the past 50 years. It's a shift that has created a sadness for him because it's a movement away from helping each other, from community, from connection, and a movement toward operating for purposes of individual self-interest. In this episode, Jeff talks about the importance, that business can play in doing good in the world, and how when we create a culture within our business that focuses on doing the right thing, on winning with integrity, we can create a competitive advantage. Let's take a listen.

Leslie:

Jeff, thank you for being on Purpose Project. I am looking forward to our conversation, on the topic of purpose in the workplace.

Jeff:

Great. Me too, Leslie.

Leslie:

First, before we dive into it, tell us a little bit about Jeff Smulyan personally and professionally.

Jeff:

Um, personally, I am from Indianapolis. My family's been here since the late 1880s, so it's been a long, long time. Grew up here, went to school at the University of Southern California Undergraduate and Law School. Always wanted to be in the media business. Uh, so I studied broadcast law and law school, wrote my law of the article on broadcasting law. I always laugh and say, in those days, if you wanted to be an entrepreneur, you went to law school today. You'd go to business school. Um, uh, but I, uh, I came back home after school, started my company, uh, ran a couple small stations before that and then started Emmis in 1980. Um, so we've been doing it, uh, almost 45 years, so Wow. And in those 45 years, we've done just about everything. We've owned radio stations, international radio stations, magazines, television stations, even a major league baseball team. Uh, along the way I've, I've been a US ambassador, uh, written a book, then all sorts of crazy stuff. Um, it's been, uh, it, it's been a fun, a fun run.

Leslie:

Love it. Love it. Well, thank you for sharing that. Uh, one question that I ask everyone on this show is, do you have a life's purpose? And if so, what is it?

Jeff:

I think my life purpose is to, I. Try to influence the world in, in a better way, um, to try to make a difference here. You know, it, it, it sounds so trite, but, uh, to try to make a difference and make things better. And I've always been proud that while I have failed numerous times, I've never quit trying.

Leslie:

Love that. Yes. Persistence, resiliency, all of that is so important. Yes. Um, as we pursue our life's purpose For sure. Right. I love it. Well, you are a leader in business, an entrepreneur, have, done a lot of things over the course of your, uh, professional careers with business. Right. How do you see the topic of purpose coming up in the business world?

Jeff:

Well, I think you wanna attract people. Who view the world broader than themselves, um, trying to make things better. We've been very fortunate. We've attracted a lot of people who I, I'm very proud to know, uh, because of what they stand for. And I sort of equate purpose to, thinking about other than your own. Personal interest on any given day, your own economic interest. And if I have a concern about the world, it's, we've gotten away from a lot of that, um, in, in the last number of years.

Leslie:

Yeah. So you see purpose in the workplace as a, as a method for bringing in the talent, the types of talent that will make. The work more successful?

Jeff:

I think we've been able to attract a like-minded people, people who believe again, that it's, uh, it's about more than just their own self-interest. Mm-hmm. It's about the interest of the company, it's about the interest of the community, it's about the interest of, uh, the larger community. And I think that's, those are the kind of people that I'm, I've been attracted to and that I've been proud to. Associate with.

Leslie:

Yeah. Does Emmis have a statement of purpose?

Jeff:

Well, we have, yeah. Mission statement just about the ability to effectuate the lives of our, of our audiences, our customers, uh, and our people.

Leslie:

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it sounds like you're, you're attracting employees into the business with the mission. How do you make that integrated into the business?

Jeff:

Probably better to share our, our 11 commandments. Um, I think that really explains who we are. I. Uh, I did this on the back of an envelope, um, many, many years ago. What do we stand for? What are our values? Um, there were 10, uh, after we bought and sold the Seattle Mariners baseball team. We added the 11th, which is Admit your Mistakes, but, but I think it was really, these are the things that, the values that sort of guide us, and I've been very proud that we've lived up to the most, you know, the time. And whenever I give speeches about. Corporate culture and values. Uh, and I read them, people always go, oh my gosh, I love'em. I love'em. Um, can I steal'em? And I say, yeah, you can have'em, but they gotta be your values. You know, nothing, nothing comes through, uh, as much as when you live up to what you say you will. Mm-hmm.

Leslie:

Um,

Jeff:

I, I'll just read'em to you really quickly.

Leslie:

Love that. Yes.

Jeff:

Um, admit your mistakes. Be flexible. Keep an open mind. Be rational. Have fun. Uh, I think fun is a very important part of having people be successful. Never get arrogant. Um, you know, believe in what you do, your industry, your company. Um, believe in yourself. Um, never jeopardize your integrity. This, uh, even though this was like seventh on the list, it's always number one, the most important thing I tell everybody. I start with my kids. Look, if your word is good. Nothing else matters. And if your word is bad, nothing else matters. Mm-hmm. So the most important thing is can people trust you? They believe you, um, be good to your people. Um, be passionate about what you do and compassionate about how you do it, and take care of your customers. Um, those are just the things that, that we sort of rally around to give the purpose to, to the enterprise that we

Leslie:

have. Mm-hmm. How do you go about rallying your employees around those,?

Jeff:

I think you live'em every day. Um, I think you either, they're either credible because you live them every day or they're not credible. Um, when we, I. We've been very fortunate. Have we in 45 years, not lived it up to everything every day? Of course not. But I think people know, and I think the most gratifying thing for me, this company's gone through major transitions. We've now gone out of the media business. We were in it for 40 years. Um, so we've had a lot of people come and go. Probably the greatest compliment I ever get is people used to work here say, best place I ever worked by far. And I get that all the time. It's very, very gratifying.

Leslie:

Hmm. And and do you associate that sentiment to the 11 commitments? Yeah. Commitments or commandments?

Jeff:

Commandments. Commandments. I, yeah. I think it's the culture. It's always the culture. The 11 commandments embody what, what the culture is all about.

Leslie:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And

Jeff:

I think culture is, is absolutely the key.

Leslie:

Mm-hmm. And, um, so the 11 Commandments are a part of the culture and. Yeah. And they're a part of that because you and your team live them out. You are the, the role models of that

Jeff:

Yeah. For the

Leslie:

business.

Jeff:

And I, I better be the one guy that they can count on to live up to these values every day. And I, I'm, listen, I'm, I'm very proud at this stage in my life, um, I'm, you know, I am proud. It doesn't mean I haven't made a zillion mistakes, but I feel comfortable with what we stand for. Um, and that. To your first question that we've tried to make things better, um, with the people that we find.

Leslie:

Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever encountered a situation where, uh, a leader or a team wasn't in alignment with the commandments and

Jeff:

Oh, yeah. Oh yes. Yeah. We, we would do employee surveys and we'd find people say, my boss does live up commandments two far, four and six. Um. And obviously when you find people who really don't fit the culture, they would be better off somewhere else and you would be better off with somebody else too. Mm-hmm. And we've had years, over the years, you're gonna have people who come in and, uh, sometimes they meet the values until they get a leadership positions and then they forget about'em. I've seen that too.

Leslie:

Right. So,

Jeff:

great. Understands the values of the company. And then they get into leadership and they think, okay, those don't apply to me anymore. Whenever, whenever you find people. We think the rules don't apply to them anymore. You got big problems.

Leslie:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like a tool that you use is employee feedback, employee surveys, as a way of keeping your finger on the pulse of

Jeff:

Absolutely. How are we doing? What mistakes are we making? How can we be better? What are we doing well?

Leslie:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Have you ever had anyone push back on the commandments and say, these aren't for me.

Jeff:

Yeah. I think people who look at the company and look at it as a destination and say, this is where I'm comfortable. Yeah. We've had that. I'm sure a lot of people have said, I know their culture. I'm not interested in being part of it.

Leslie:

Mm-hmm. So, you know. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jeff:

Yeah.

Leslie:

So. Thank you for sharing the 11 commandments. I love, I love that.'cause they really are how we're gonna hold ourselves when we're a part of this company, this mission that we're all a part of. One of the things that I've been really fascinated with exploring is this concept of, um, company mission and purpose.

Jeff:

Right?

Leslie:

Versus individual purpose and mission. And, you know, windows two can overlap, that's great, but when they don't, it doesn't necessarily mean the employee's not a good fit, right? It just means that, they might not be as energized as, as if those two overlapped.

Jeff:

Yeah. And listen, company mission always has to be about shareholder value and economic success. No question. Those are the things that, you know, I always say you can believe in all the great things in the world, but if you can't. And do well enough to keep the doors open. It really doesn't matter. Um, so you have to have a company, you know, mission that is not only, you know, you know, to, to do stand for the right things, but also has to be economically successful. And we all know that. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think, but I think they, they do align and the kind of people that you get. Um, doesn't mean they all have the same political outlook. God knows they don't. Um, but that they, they believe the company could be a force for good

Leslie:

mm-hmm.

Jeff:

Force for positive things in the community and the areas that it serves.

Leslie:

Mm-hmm. And I think

Jeff:

that that's been a unifying force for people that we've hired.

Leslie:

Yeah. In your leadership role, do you see. Different areas in the, in the business as, connected to the purpose more so than other areas or,

Jeff:

well, sure. I mean, listen, you know, when you're doing community involvement, I'm, I'm speaking as the, as somebody who's been in the broadcasting business most of my career, we're sort of drifting out of it now. But obviously in broadcasting, you know, how do you do things in your community that make lives better? Whether it's fundraisers, whether it's events for community groups, um, whether it's providing programming, uh, that makes people's lives a little better every day. So yeah, all of those things. All the things where you interface with the community rather, rather than being a salesperson or an engineer. Um, who don't really live the purpose every day. I mean, obviously salespeople have to live, live the purpose of ethical behaviors and making sure that they're doing the right things for their customers. Um, but it's not as forward facing as doing a charity drive, um, for the Salvation Army or the Cancer Society, which you're programming people do on a regular basis.

Leslie:

Right. Yeah, that makes sense. What advice do you have for leaders out there that are listening to this, that, maybe are having a challenge of getting their people to connect to their mission and purpose?

Jeff:

Well, I think the most important thing for leaders to ask themselves, what's important to me? What am I trying to accomplish here? You know, some people just say, I don't care. I wanna make the most money. You know, I don't care what I do. Um, you know, you're probably not gonna reach those people as much as people who say, I wanna make a difference here. I want to build an organization of that does make a difference. Sure, I gotta make a profit. I never wanna forget that when you run a business, but I want to do it in the right way. Mm-hmm. Um, one of the things we said is never jeopardize your integrity. We either win the right way or we don't win at all. Now, maybe a lot of people say. Bye. Gosh, you gotta win no matter what it takes. Um, that was never us. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think, I think, you know, having leaders, um, who can build a culture, I, I, like I say, culture is really the most important thing. Mm-hmm. What a culture of light a people who view, sort of view their mission in life the same way you view yours.

Leslie:

Mm-hmm. Why do you say that culture's the most important?

Jeff:

Because everything about success in an enterprise determines, is determined by the quality of the people around you and the values of those people. Mm-hmm. If you don't have the right culture, and I've seen it a thousand times, if you have a culture where a leader berates people, uh, pits people against one another, um, you know, you really, I think, have a dysfunctional organization.

Leslie:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Do you, do you see culture, purpose, this kind of element of a business as being a competitive differentiator?

Jeff:

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think when you have people who are aligned, um, and people who sort of have a common mission, I think they will achieve more than people whose values are not aligned, uh, and who don't share a common vision. With the rest of the organization. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think those organizations win a lot more than they lose.

Leslie:

Yeah. So it's a way of achieving shareholder value.

Jeff:

Absolutely. I think. I think so. I think Sue Leslie.

Leslie:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Are there any challenges that you see in business? Related to the topic of purpose, mission, culture, you know, that kind of area that we're talking around.

Jeff:

Well, we sort of live in a world that's changed. I was talking to a friend the other day, if I have one sadness about where we are as a country. Um, we focus inward much more than outward. Um. You know, what built this country, um, was sort of our success coming together. Whether it was winning a depression, winning a World War, coming together after nine 11, um, I think we've lost a lot of that. Um, I could bore you for a lot longer time than we have, but I think there's too many people who say it's about me and I don't care about anybody else.

Leslie:

Mm-hmm.

Jeff:

And I think that's, I think that's to our great peril. I've seen a lot more of that thinking. Um, we're not united as a country. We don't look at each other and say how we're all in this together. How do we make this place better? We look at it and say, I don't really care about you. I only care about me. Um, and I think that's a bad sign for the society, and I see it. I see that attitude growing a lot.

Leslie:

Yeah. Well, and it's interesting because I see that too. I mean, it's hard not to see that, um, in the world today, and yet this topic of purpose and mission, it is about others. You know, it, it tends to be about doing for others. So

Jeff:

That's right. That, and, and what I'm saying is we've gotten away from that.

Leslie:

Mm-hmm.

Jeff:

I have a friend whose son is a senior person at a major, major institutional fund. I. And he says most of the people are calling, I'm our hedge fund and PE billionaires. And the common theme from all of'em is when they come in is to say, if I'm worth a billion dollars, the only thing that matters is I gotta get to two. And if we're worth two, the only thing that matters again, I get to four. Mm-hmm. Or, or get from eight to 12. And the notion is that it's not, how do I make this a better place? How do I use the great success I've had? To improve the lives of the people around me and the people in the general community. We've lost that. Um, and I think we've lost it. You know, we have somebody said, we're really an oligarchy. We have a number of incredibly power people, powerful people who were removed from even thinking about, um, the benefits to society.

Leslie:

Right?

Jeff:

Somebody pointed out something to me I thought was interesting. We spend as a percentage of gross domestic product, I think half or two thirds less than we spent, you know, on a, on a relative basis during the Eisenhower era, um, when we built the interstate highway system and we built a lot of our roads and bridges. And the point was you had a lot of people who said, look, rather than spend money on the public good. From just infrastructure, give me that money back in tax cuts. Mm-hmm. Uh, and we've done that. And so I think you, you know, uh, my favorite, I'm getting kind of away from purpose, but maybe not, maybe this ties in. Um, my favorite statement from a law professor 50 years ago was he said, look, the greatest political system in the world's ever known is a democracy. The greatest economic system the world's ever known is free market capitalism. But over time, in a free market. Capitalist, uh, democracy, you will have people who win so much, um, and they will keep winning and they'll, and they'll allocate more of their winnings to keep the rules such that they win more. Mm-hmm. And everybody else sort of falls a little bit behind. Mm-hmm. Um, I use it, the, the, the example of sort of the old frogs in a, in boiling water. It slowly boils. I'm sure you've heard that analogy before where, um, and that and that pretty soon people realize that they're falling behind and they're angry. I think that's where this country is today. Yeah. You look, you look at on a, on a Trump voter on the right or a Sanders voter on the left, and they look at the system and they say, the system's rigged against me. And if you look at the economic data where you've siphon so much to the very, very top, um. You know, they're right. Um, that we, the, the economic distribution of this country is dramatically different than it was 50 years ago. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think the problem is the people on the very top look at the world and say, now my problem, my purpose is me, me, make more money for me. Mm-hmm. That's all my purpose is. I have to make more money for me. What. Improving society. What about, you know, educating not my problem. My problem is if I've got$2 billion, it is my divine right to get four.

Leslie:

Mm-hmm.

Jeff:

And that's, and that scares me more than anything about where this country is

Leslie:

today. Mm-hmm. What do we do?'cause I do think that this is a topic of purpose. You know, purpose is about collective. Um. Uh, high tide rises all ships, you know, wellbeing.

Jeff:

Wellbeing, yeah. That, that's at least, you know, in my flawed definition, that's how, what is the collective wellbeing of society.

Leslie:

Yes. Okay. So what do we do? What can we do to shift that mindset, shift that mentality?

Jeff:

Well, as my professor said throughout history, um, I. The frightening thing is that's been solved by revolutions. Mm-hmm. That's a little frightening to, that's a lot frightening to me. Um, but the idea is to infuse everybody, including those at the very top, but including those, you know, all throughout society is saying, look, how do we make this a better place? Mm-hmm. And I, and I am, I wanna make my life better. Um, but I sort of intellectually. Understand that if I make everybody's life better, we have a better society. And I think we've gotten away from that, Leslie. Mm-hmm. I don't think people think anything about, you know, any, anybody but themselves. Mm. We sort of, sort of demonize those who don't look like us.

Leslie:

Mm-hmm.

Jeff:

Uh, and that, and that becomes pretty frightening.

Leslie:

Yeah. Well, and going back to where we started, one of the things that, that, that you're doing through business is instilling these 11 commandments. Right. Which is a way of living. A way of being. Right. Right. Um, so that's one thing that business can do.'cause I do think, personally, I do think business has a, a big role in solving the problem.

Jeff:

Absolutely. Right. Um, and

Leslie:

um, and

Jeff:

I'm very proud here in Indiana that we have some wonderful major companies that really do think about the Betterment society. Mm-hmm. And I've, I've seen that in projects I've worked on with them.

Leslie:

Yeah. Yeah. Any other advice that you have for those that are listening on how we can shift our mindset to be more collective and, and the role that purpose plays with that?

Jeff:

Well, again, I think try to, try to step back. Um, and look at the larger society, you know, step back and, because we all get caught in our own rut, how am I doing today for me and my family? Mm-hmm. How, you know, and that's, that's natural that sometimes step back and say, you know, we all, when we all succeed and we all move forward as a society, we're all better off.

Leslie:

That's right. Awesome. Anything left unsaid on the topic of purpose in the workplace.

Jeff:

I hope this has been helpful. I've enjoyed it.

Leslie:

Thank you very much. I've enjoyed it as well, and appreciate you being on the show. Thank you.

Jeff:

Thanks, Leslie. My pleasure. Thank you.

Leslie:

Jeff's reflection on how society has become more and more self-absorbed has really stuck with me. This constant obsession with wanting more and more riddles, corporate America and consumerism. But what I've come to realize through Purpose Project is that more will never be enough. More will never create a life filled with purpose and meaning. Because a life filled with purpose and meaning has nothing to do with self and everything to do with connection. A life filled with purpose and meaning is about connecting to ourselves. Connecting to each other and connecting to the environment that sustains us. This is why Purpose Project exists. To help remind us that to live a life of purpose, we have to have connection Jeff, thank you for being on Purpose Project, and thanks to all of you for tuning in. Purpose Project is brought to you for education and for entertainment purposes. This podcast is not intended to replace the advice that you would receive from a licensed therapist or doctor or any other qualified professional.

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