Purpose Project

S2E5: The Soul Of A Company

• Leslie Pagel • Season 2 • Episode 5

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In this episode of Purpose Project, Leslie Pagel sits down with Josh Plaskoff, a leader in employee engagement and a professor of leadership. They discuss the true essence of what brings a business to life—beyond products, numbers, or brands—and focus on the integral role of people, energy, and deeper purpose. Josh shares his personal journey, highlighting his extensive career in corporate leadership and academia. Together, they explore the importance of dialogue, empathy, and the dynamic nature of purpose within both individuals and organizations. The conversation expands to discuss the role of leadership in nurturing purpose and the essentiality of maintaining the human element in the workforce. The episode concludes with reflections on the importance of keeping the business's soul alive and the impact of purpose on the vitality of organizations.

00:00 Introduction to Purpose Project

00:53 Meet Josh Plaskoff: A Journey of Learning and Leadership

03:20 Defining Purpose: Personal and Professional Insights

06:49 Purpose in the Workplace: Aligning Individual and Corporate Goals

13:57 Challenges and Opportunities in Embracing Purpose

19:46 The Resurgence of Purpose: Genuine Belief or Profit-Driven?

25:03 The Role of Dialogue and Empathy

30:24 Rediscovering the Soul of a Business

37:01 The Importance of Rituals and Traditions

45:15 Final Thoughts on Purpose in the Workplace

48:15 Conclusion and Reflection

Purpose Project is a research study on the topic of life's purpose. You can follow along in the making of Purpose Project:
Instagram: @purpose.project
LinkedIn: @purposeproject-media
TikTok: @purpose.project

Captions are auto-generated.

What gives a business its soul? It's not just the product or the numbers or the brand, it's the people, the energy, and the deeper purpose that fuels the business. Hi, my name is Leslie Pagel and welcome to Purpose Project. In this episode, I sit down with Josh Plaskoff. Josh is a leader in employee engagement and a professor of leadership at Purdue University. In this episode, we explore what truly brings a business to life. Together we discuss why engagement isn't just about checking the box and how the most successful companies don't just talk about purpose, they live it. Let's take a listen.

Leslie:

Josh, thank you for coming and being on Purpose Project. I'm looking forward to conversation. Thanks, It's to be here. I'm I'm, really looking too. I imagine we going to go all the place when comes to purpose in the workplace. But before we get to that, tell us a little bit about who is Josh plaskoff? Who is Josh? Um,

Josh:

the lifelong project of who am I? Um, uh, I don't know. I, uh, grew up in an acting family and um, in California I have always been kind of a hypersensitive kid. I was a hypersensitive kid and, and as a result Always been interested in feelings of

POD00058:

people

Josh:

and connecting with people. And I really didn't know what I wanted do. I. Still sure know what I'm doing. but, uh, um, uh, got really interested in just learning and learning anything I about everything. And so sort of a lifelong learner, learned. from shakespeare to physics to name And all of my education was in learning and really all of my work in learning yeah, I I'm a learning kind guy. Um, how about professionally? So professionally, uh, 30 years in industry, um, to an executive position. And, um, at the same time taught, uh, for

POD00058:

about 20

Josh:

years at the university concurrently. And, uh, took three years to teach full time, Kelley School Business. And that was really fun. And I went back to my old career and decided was time to kind of, uh, leave the corporate world, uh, not completely, but being in the corporate and teach full and start my business. so um, so now I'm, uh, teaching up at Purdue and um, leadership and teaching the generation, which is of what I really love do. then also started my company, is really about, you about purpose. That's kind living my purpose and working a few for my friends to live their purpose. So, love it. Yeah.

Leslie:

One question I ask everyone Mm-hmm. What is your purpose?

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have a life purpose,

Leslie:

what is it? You know, somebody asked me that I would say probably 25 ago.

Josh:

And I didn't even think just came out was

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to

Josh:

make the workplace more human and stuck. it sort of, uh, uh, I it's broadened since then to make the world more human. But, um, so much my time is spent in the workplace and the workplace that. Um, really to try humanize things and I saw so much happening to me to me, to me to others that me about the workplace in terms pushing away humanity, pushing away we are as people, um, becoming the machine. And really

POD00058:

frustrated me. Mm-hmm.

Josh:

it just came out and it sort of stuck and that's what is. whenever anybody asks me, that's say, to make make workplace Yes. Well, and it's perfect fit for conversation today, which is all about how purpose shows up in the workplace.

Leslie:

Could you, before we go there, could you share little bit about business?'cause I think that will help set the context for our conversation. Sure. Yeah. Um, so the company called Inner Human Group and, and really the focus is on. trying to take a different to organizations is trying to reframe what organizations are what means be in an

Josh:

with people. Um, most organizations, consulting is done as a structural thing. We look at things as things. We look at as things, they're just moving around those things. And our approach more relationship. First things second. Actually, your relationship defines your thingness. And so in organizations, we looking the relationships not only people, of people to purpose, people to vision, people to, uh, customers, people to the products the services. Um, a a lot work early this thing called experience, which is now a, a, thing. And, uh, we still do the experience. We think about the employee experience, beyond just the employee experience. It's at the entire human experience as part business experience. And we're convinced a hundred percent if you make workplace more human, if you create, if you work on those relationships, it will affect the bottom line positively. It's hard people believe that I've shown people data and research and they just don't seem wanna it for some reason. Mm-hmm. But, uh, But, it um, impacts the bottom and it's, but it's very intangible a lot times, and, so, uh, basically doing is taking the work I've done for 30 years and, helping others that same work, so Yeah. are working companies to help them bring a human experience into the workforce with an emphasis relationships, over. movement of things we, always start with the business. start what you Mm-hmm. And then do you create an environment a human environment achieve not just an environment, because a lot of times it's not a human environment. It's like, gonna stress our people out or we're gonna, you give them rewards punishments and of that. But it's actually saying can achieve that in a different way. Right. And leaders think in very different way. Yeah.

Leslie:

So, that, that's one reason why we wanted you on the show is because you are taking an unconventional approach

Josh:

mm-hmm. To helping businesses succeed. And doing that, it's also helping humans succeed in the business. Yeah. And,

Leslie:

and one very human is purpose. Mm-hmm.

Josh:

Absolutely.

Leslie:

And I love to start with exploration of purpose an individual versus what I would like collective purpose mm-hmm. Of Of business. And are those similar? How are they different? Well, for me, don't, and people may

Josh:

disagree, but don't think you can have an individual purpose without being connected to people um, but think purpose is always collective in some sense. necessarily that has the same but that your purpose is somehow to others. And, so, for our work actually is one of the bases. purpose, values, meaning, and, vision um, those four things really sort of the actually, I don't like to use it as as a noun. I to use it as a verb.

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I, I, I, we

POD00058:

get to this later, but the the, the, idea of nouns, like vision statements and, you know, purpose statements. They're

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dead,

POD00058:

but itself is not dead. Right? It's living, It's dynamic. And so as soon as you turn it into a noun, same thing with vision. Here's our vision statement. Well, that's not

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living but it's

POD00058:

evolving, constantly living thing. And so I like to think about it as purposing visioning, you know, those as a verb Mm-hmm. Because it's constantly going. So your individual purposing takes place within a collective purposing, right. And they should inform each other and they should connect with each other. And they shouldn't necessarily the same. Because if, if you say, well, your purpose has to be the same as our organizational purpose identically in terms of what we think it is, you're actually changing somebody's humanity because everyone is different. a matter of making it completely different, it's making

Josh:

is it meaningful so that collectively you can out purpose together by putting pieces together. So, so there is an sense that you find own unique meaning to it. But your own unique meaning,

POD00058:

isn't isolated on its own. part of a

Josh:

larger Wave wave or purpose. And it's wave that pushing so that's kind of how I look But like, you know,

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um, I think about my purpose

POD00058:

making the workplace more human. It's not because of

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me,

POD00058:

because

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of others. Right. It's how

POD00058:

does it affect others. How does it affect all of us in some way? Yeah. And, and the idea is that it has to transcend if it's just isolated to you,

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it's not transcending

POD00058:

anything. It's not transcending the organization, it's, it's it's not high enough. To me, the purpose is, is kind of the highest level. Mm-hmm. And if it's

Josh:

the then needs to be

POD00058:

it's affecting the entire entangled world. Mm-hmm. In some way. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

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it sounds, you know, kind of

POD00058:

lofty. I mean, purposes always

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sound very lofty and kind of,

POD00058:

you know, as I say, miss

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America ish, you know, and they they

POD00058:

ask you, what do you wanna, the world, and

Josh:

well,

POD00058:

yeah.

Josh:

That's what purpose That's what it should It should It feel it's so lofty and big it's almost impossible to achieve.

Leslie:

Here's what I'm hearing, I'm hearing that purpose in and of itself an individual and for a business is generally connected to others as well. You think you know, Viktor Frankl's work

POD00058:

purpose,

Josh:

He, he, merges purpose with responsibility. that's kind how it too, is that. Purpose has within Mm-hmm. And responsibility is to yourself. Responsibility is to others. And, yourself to some

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extent. take care of yourself, but you're part of that otherness as well. So, so, so

POD00058:

if you have a purpose, the purpose has responsibility.

Josh:

Not accountability, means if you don't it, somebody's gonna, you know, punish you whatever. Mm-hmm. The responsibility And that I have to because I am part of a collective Or I'm part human race. Right. Or I'm of

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whatever it is. Mm-hmm. You know,

POD00058:

and, and it's, it's a, it's a compel compulsion that You have to do it. Yeah. I must

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do So I

Leslie:

think thing that I'm getting tripped up on though Is for a company, though, a company, has purpose, right? Yeah. Um, But for the individual, their purpose. And in this case, it's company's purpose. And their

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hope

Leslie:

is to get all the

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employees aligned with Right?

Josh:

Yes. But aligned doesn't Mm-hmm. Align means that the energies

POD00058:

are working in the same So let you know pur purposes in general. I

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mean, if I'm advising

POD00058:

I'm making a purpose. It should

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be pretty general,

POD00058:

you know?

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Um, like Steve Jobs, I wanna put

POD00058:

a ding in the universe.

Josh:

Um, putting a ding universe pretty general. Um, you, you look that and say almost everybody find some their purpose It's so big and it's so lofty and it's so

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general.

Josh:

That people can say, I'm contributing to ding in the universe.

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by the way I

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answer phones. I'm

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contributing to that ding in the

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by the way that I am talking and

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I care about

POD00058:

I'm contributing to

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that by, and, and each person's

POD00058:

purpose could

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be contained within that.

POD00058:

Mm-hmm. You know, my purpose is

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to

POD00058:

treat people with dignity and respect. My purpose is to people in some way to lead a

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better life, you know, whatever that is,

Josh:

that's general as well. Mm-hmm. And it can usually fit into something, they have to be, you have to enable people to find their purpose within the context of

POD00058:

corporate purpose. to say, well, that doesn't count because that you're not saying exactly what we say. Right. Well then you've limited your purpose to

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a

POD00058:

formula. Mm-hmm. It's not a formula. It's an emotional state. Its, its a state of

Josh:

being. And so, so it's, it's, alignment, but not in the sense of we're make everybody the same. Right. It's alignment in the sense everyone's energy comes from purpose, individual, and collective is contributing to the same stream same wave moving forward. if it's going opposite direction, got problem. Right, it's crushing the wave and it's okay, now we have an

POD00058:

issue. Mm-hmm. Now we

Josh:

gotta about that. Okay. So company a purpose. Individuals have their purpose, and the goal is to help individuals see how purpose connects to the company's purpose. Yeah. kind what I, I

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would call

Josh:

there some organizations seen where believe in the values the same way you to believe in purpose. And call the Stepford companies. I don't if you remember the movie, Wise. Yeah. But they were

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all the

POD00058:

uhhuh, and they had to act the

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the same. And it's like,

Josh:

that's not healthy. Right. It's not healthy organization because leads to no evolution. It leads to no change. leads to no forward movement.

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It's a

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a dead organization.

POD00058:

So, So, that's, that's, that's

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what we mean by

POD00058:

A lot of people think alignment is lockstep. Right. It's not lockstep. Yeah. about alignment of energy. If you think, I, I like to think in terms of energy, human energies.

Josh:

But

POD00058:

but if you think about it, you know, people are putting energy into their work, and you can tell when there's positive energy right? Oh yeah. You can walk in and feel in a place. You can't measure it, you can't really describe it and identify it, but it's there. So if you think about it as energy and if they, the human energy is moving in a positive direction to, to allow things to

Josh:

happen, then there, then meanings and purposes and all those are aligned, right? I, all this company has purpose, individuals have a and it's about making the energy aligned so that those are connected and moving in the same direction. But when I look out into corporate America, it doesn't feel like that's what happens.

Leslie:

Why is

Josh:

that? Well, a good that's what I'm trying to But, um,

POD00058:

Just

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off the top

POD00058:

my head, I think there are a couple

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reasons.

POD00058:

One is

Josh:

that

POD00058:

it's not an aligned

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world We live in a world

POD00058:

contradictions, you know, and so thinking about energies, there, there are, there, are opposite, you know, young, the psychologists would talk about opposite energies that are contained within us and opposite energies that are contained within society. Those aren't necessarily bad things, but we look

Josh:

at bad

POD00058:

because they conflict. Mm-hmm. We don't want conflict because that doesn't, that's not good. But in reality, conflict is something, if handled properly, is what moves things forward. It also leads to different views of the world that need to be looked at because we

Josh:

we're

POD00058:

of limited in of the world. And I think this is part, you know, part of the

Josh:

the other challenge is we, we,

POD00058:

have certain perspectives that we can take that we're comfortable with and we think that that's complete

Josh:

truth. But in reality there are multiple perspectives that are

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equally

Josh:

true and you put all together like a jigsaw puzzle to really close to some kind of a lot of it is and a lot of it stuff that's confusing

POD00058:

So I think what we try to do is we oversimplify things too much. try to limit them to this is how it's got to be because we want the recipe, we want the checklist, we want the numbers, we well, unfortunately the world doesn't work that way. We think it does because we've been taught through our physics classes that you can calculate

Josh:

how

POD00058:

the world works

Josh:

in numbers and everything is completely calculable because what Galileo and Newton

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But what quantum physics our new physics is showing is

POD00058:

that's not reality. That's an And so

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we've been

POD00058:

to some extent, to limit our thinking to small buckets and, and ways of thinking that are, that

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lock us And when,

POD00058:

they lock us in, then we're always fighting the energy instead of

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trying to Be in the energy.

POD00058:

About a surfing

Josh:

and a wave. You know, if fight the wave

POD00058:

and you try and conform it to what you want it to be, you ain't gonna have a good ride.

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But if you are become one with the

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if surf the wave, if you actually go with

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the wave and, and, and you

POD00058:

in all of its sort of unpredictable nature, then you're gonna

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get a good ride. Hmm.

POD00058:

this is the same thing. I think what we try to force things into what we think they should be when they're not that way. And then we run into challenges and conflicts

Josh:

that we don't solve because don't want to deal those

POD00058:

Mm-hmm. Because they

Josh:

fit our simplistic model of the world. And I think when talking about purpose and meaning you know, all these big human beings in general, talking about complexity. talking about very things. Each person unique, has their own story, has, years of and history and everything else, and we just dismiss as though doesn't exist and say, well, you're a

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a cog in the wheel or in the machine. That

POD00058:

type of thinking limits our ability to actually employ this

Josh:

stuff. Mm-hmm.

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We

Josh:

like to be you know, planned and solid and everything's predictable. Mm-hmm. And Mm-hmm. That's the beauty. It's also challenge. My take. Yeah. And we base our work is, how do you actually. Embrace that complexity. Ride the wave. How do you ride How do you em the complexity? How do you you entertain different thing, different points of different ways thinking, different ways looking at world, and actually not look it a but look at it as opportunity.

POD00058:

Right.

Leslie:

So I've got two question here because I, I get I, get. is that the reason why it's not showing up is because we tend to fight instead of riding the wave how do you see purpose up in the workforce today? Then how should purpose show up in the workforce? Yeah. Well think of

Josh:

of all, I it's had a which is really good. Okay. I people finally

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that purpose is important

POD00058:

not only in their lives but in the

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workplace as well.

POD00058:

do you, but that's

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a good thing. Lemme ask the question

Leslie:

though. Is the resurgence because

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of profit

POD00058:

or like actual belief? Like what's motivating

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The the on good question. I, you know, I think

Josh:

kind of my take on'cause been behind few these ideas that start off, with kind of. A grander idea. And unfortunately happens is a a lot of times it gets

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commoditized

POD00058:

And, I think that that's sort of a natural pathway that we've had with a lot of ideas. Um, purpose potentially

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could go down that road

POD00058:

of, okay, now it just becomes another line in your, in your organization that you just tell people and then it sits on the shelf

Josh:

and you you put it

POD00058:

on people's performance plans and then you measure it and then,

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you know, that's not

POD00058:

what it is. Right. But that feels comfortable because that's the way

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we've done this all

POD00058:

time. Right. With these things. so.

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So, the good news is it

POD00058:

re has come back

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with

POD00058:

some people saying, you know, like you and some other people saying

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that.

Josh:

True purpose. The idea of really finding purpose that that pervades the individual the organization is important. And, and, and yes, it, it will affect the money side, which is fine. great. I think that's important. Um,

POD00058:

but if it just becomes a means to an end

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rather than part

POD00058:

the end in itself, which is the human being, is the end in,

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in itself

POD00058:

Okay. If it just becomes another means to an end, then it's losing its luster. Mm-hmm. And that's a

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a lot of times what I've seen. So the

Josh:

good news is it's, it's resurfacing, Um, but

POD00058:

I think there's still potential and for example,

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example, with employee experiences, has happened

POD00058:

and starting to happen. You know, the was a very revolutionary

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idea.

POD00058:

It was how do you co-design the workplace with employees? How do you view

Josh:

human as a super set of employee experience

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to allow

Josh:

the human part of it to actually, you bring in emotions and feelings and and all kinds of How you, make some of these intangible things tangible in some way so could design them together? And, you know, some use it as bring your dog to and, you know, put a bar that and now a great employee experience. well great, but that's not really the so it does happen the time. Mm-hmm. Um. the, um, unfortunately you

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you don't get the, payback Same thing with purpose.

POD00058:

I think if it becomes another corporate line where you just put it on the wall and put it on the mugs and say,

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okay, here's our purpose.

Josh:

Yay raw us, and then we're gonna have little parties with purpose, parties, and we're gonna talk about purpose. And just gonna have our purpose. And your purpose doesn't matter long as it's our purpose, you're not gonna

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get mm-hmm. What really it's And so

POD00058:

think, so I think, there's a potential point and, and the the question is, which

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direction is it gonna go? Mm-hmm. and

POD00058:

not only which direction is it

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gonna go collectively

POD00058:

terms of everybody, but individually, which organizations are gonna really latch onto it and say, this really is important and it is transformational of the workplace. And it is something that they don't teach in business schools. Yeah.

Josh:

Yeah. Or it's gonna be some that say not gonna it that way and choice. And hopefully is that that the ones that latch on some research shows this, when you latch onto purpose, it does change perceptions of the organization. It does change how,

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you know, how

POD00058:

employees retention and all those

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kinds of things. Mm-hmm.

POD00058:

the ones that don't

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may

POD00058:

less of an attractive employer and may do less business. Yeah. And then it'll prove

Josh:

itself. the ones that do

Leslie:

mm-hmm. We know they and feel different. Yeah. We can feel the But what do they do to have, to be purposing in their business? Yeah.

Josh:

Um, well

POD00058:

think part of it is, is

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dialoguing. So, so,

POD00058:

um, we

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so our, our, we have a model

POD00058:

we use for our work, and it's called the Clear It's the LEAR

Josh:

and. basis is purpose, vision, values, and, Okay. those kind of four the basis of the And then builds up to, it actually is backwards. The, Yeah. The, the, The, and the are at the bottom and builds to the C the top. And the C at the top is co-designing. Okay? So idea that you're co-designing the workplace. get there, you have to have a, an organization of dialogue And the dialogue comes through listening and learning, which L. empathy, which is the E and dialogue is not about, um, telling what your ideas telling people what your purpose is and saying, here's your purpose. Now, you tell us your purpose is in line that?

POD00058:

make sure

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you're all aligned.

POD00058:

Dialogue is actually coming to the table with very open points

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of view

Josh:

and being able exchange those and see what comes out of So part of it is having an organization of dialogue live their

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their

Josh:

purpose and allows just purpose being human being. Mm-hmm. To, to share different ideas, to, to innovate, to create all of those aspects being a human being. To enable that To happen, you have the A the R, is adapt and relate, which is, which are the enablers of So the idea how do you a community within the organization, community feeling, and not, not even just a community, feeling community itself. And community purpose, purpose-driven, right? Entity. we, we we love the community, but we really want put in the work to get And, um, community is, it has transcendent purpose. By definition, definition has a transcendent if you don't have transcendent purpose as as a group, you're you can't be community. So in some sense, what they do they create an environment in community thrives.

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of and community is responsibility, care for others,

POD00058:

having some transcendent purpose, um, um, having a moral obligation to each

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other. That is there, not because

POD00058:

getting rewarded and punished, but because you just have to mm-hmm.

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mm-hmm. Because you're part of it. So,

POD00058:

the danger is when you segment out,

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oh, we're gonna now do purpose

Josh:

work

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and, and not

POD00058:

at it in the of the life

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in the organization. Mm-hmm.

Josh:

So it's not workshop and you're done. Right. It's about do you actually as human beings and integrated with. Caring vision and values and the goals and

POD00058:

they have to all be

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integrated.

POD00058:

So it's a matter of, an environment where it's integrated. It's just part and parcel of what you do. Right.

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And it's hard to say,

POD00058:

well, you implement this and you implement that, and you just put this in place and that in place because it's not that's life works. Mm-hmm. You know, life is not a compartmentalized. thing

Josh:

of, exact measures and exact actions and everything else. It's a flow. And so I think the, the companies do it, do do work where they have a lot of about purpose, individual purpose, and, and purpose. and, what does mean? they point some of those things out say, Hey, that was really living our purpose all that. But if it just becomes mechanical process and doesn't become embedded just in the relationships of organization, then you're minimizing its possibilities. Yeah. So how you do that?

Leslie:

How you do it? How do you, so I am hearing it allows room for dialogue. And dialogue comes with empathy. comes from being open and caring and all these things, in my I'm thinking comes with time. It adds time. then I'm imagining an executive team coming together weekly, monthly, and trying to envision what does that look like for company that's living purpose and role modeling the ways

Josh:

Yeah. Yeah. there's, there's It's different way of and that's part of the challenge. Because to some power be mediated, you and we have all power structures that build in organizations. And not saying power is bad, but it's saying it has to in some Other have to feel like they power. You You can't power, purpose

POD00058:

without Some kind of you know, self power or empowerment Mm-hmm. How are you gonna feel

IMG_6281:

purpose, purposeful?

POD00058:

I.

IMG_6281:

if you have

POD00058:

no power at all? Right.

Josh:

So the question is, is how you actually create an environment that's just this power we're tell you and do, you know, and instruct you what do and you're just gonna cause that's

IMG_6281:

not gonna allow people to free up purpose.

POD00058:

So, So, you know, part of it has to do with mediating power. Part of it has to

Josh:

do with constant dialogue and talking about who you a being, just what you're but who who you are you stand human being in the in the, workplace. And that's. That's part being a human being. part of it is, um, linking your business to those purposes. Why are you doing what you're doing? You You and not I, I'm still convinced that there is a soul for being. And there's also a soul for a company, it's not in a religious sense, but in a sense there is

IMG_6281:

a,

Josh:

there is

IMG_6281:

a,

POD00058:

some kind of a, a defining characteristic of who they are. That started at the beginning. There was a reason they started. It's not just for money, It's it's almost

IMG_6281:

almost never for It's

POD00058:

there's something

IMG_6281:

there at the beginning,

POD00058:

And a lot of times what happens is it gets lost because you're you're doing, you're wrapped up in all your business stuff and everything else, but that soul is still there. It's just covered with so much gook and dirt and garbage that you can't get to it. And so part of the purpose work is getting back to, what was it that was the energy that started

IMG_6281:

this place, and then allowing people

POD00058:

participate in that energy.

IMG_6281:

So,

Josh:

you know, those are some of the things you you You to re recover that soul. You have to and, and, and bring into it so that they

IMG_6281:

attach to it.

POD00058:

What's hard

Josh:

right is organizations are somewhat temporary spaces, you know, and, and it it does take time. And so,

POD00058:

you know, the, I had one of my students come to me and say. Um, so is it normal for people to just stay at a job two or three years and then move on? Because that's what it seems like everyone

Josh:

does. And And I said, well, that's become the new right? Because for a couple reasons. One is you make more money doing that because you raise. other is that there isn't a huge amount of of loyalty right Mm-hmm. Because there's not a a lot of loyalty

POD00058:

coming from the companies to the employees

IMG_6281:

either. Mm-hmm.

POD00058:

It's a two-way say, well, you

IMG_6281:

know, we're gonna let 10,000 people go, that helps the bottom, you

POD00058:

the short term bottom line. But it also says, we're not gonna be loyal to you, but

IMG_6281:

we want, you know,

POD00058:

we want you to be loyal back to us. Right. Well, how how can you have that kind of loyalty you don't know whether they're just gonna let you go? Mm-hmm. So to, to do this and to really live purpose

Josh:

in some sense, you have to revisit idea of loyalty and to each And what mean to be an employee what does mean to be, uh, an organization together? which again, been challenged and it's, it's, you it's different Um, so, so, you know, does a lot of time, but without having time to to grow nurture it, it kind of take over. you know, the, know, and, and grow out, know,

IMG_6281:

that grow out that soul or whatever it is, then it's

POD00058:

to do. Right. It's hard to do. Yeah. I mean, this is not easy stuff. This is, it's not for the faint hearted, that's for sure. I mean,

IMG_6281:

this is this is not easy. It's not

Leslie:

It's not easy. Well, as were, as about the soul of the business, I found myself drawing parallel to season one. So season one was all about individuals pursuing their purpose. Mm-hmm. And one the things that came out as a theme was that of our conditioning Through childhood and into adulthood it's, it's conditioning us to do the things we're supposed to do. Right. And as you were talking about the, soul and over time how it loses itself, It's like, wow, that happens, you know, for individuals too, there's this phase like, you're supposed to do this, you're supposed to grow by 10% every year. You're supposed to, all supposed things. Yeah. These things that happens in business too. Oh, And that, that also causes the soul of business to Yeah. Get shadowed. Yeah. I mean, I I, always ask the question is, wrong having a business

Josh:

that at the rate inflation little beyond inflation and gives hundred people great life? Mm-hmm. What's wrong with that? There's

IMG_6281:

nothing

Josh:

wrong

IMG_6281:

with it. Why does

POD00058:

have to, everything have to be a

Josh:

a Walmart or you know, massive empire. Why can't just be that is good? And turns to be something great, lose initial kind of, just doing this. because we care about it. Right. and And, yeah. think it happens to people

IMG_6281:

and it happens in some organizations, you know? Mm-hmm.

POD00058:

I, I, always think

IMG_6281:

that

POD00058:

I, I like the idea

IMG_6281:

that your

POD00058:

purpose is being spoken to you and you need

IMG_6281:

What are you being asked? Mm-hmm. Uh, what is it, what is life asking

POD00058:

of you? Right. That's the purpose. Yeah. what're what you

Josh:

think, what Is being asked. And that's the responsibility you have life. And has You know,

POD00058:

and, each person

Josh:

is bringing some purpose. They may not know what it it yet, but it's there. But is so you talked about, and I was, I thinking

Leslie:

talking about purpose. When you say it's calling you, it's speaking you what, know, life is asking you now, is that also true a a business? I

Josh:

in some sense it is. Okay. I think, I think there's, yeah. I think it's when get a few people hear similar kind of voice mm-hmm. Saying why, what do we to, why do we need to exist

POD00058:

as an

IMG_6281:

organization? You know, and, and there there

POD00058:

be some kind of a

IMG_6281:

kind of a calling behind it in some sense. Right. Again, I'm not

Josh:

trying to be about it. Yeah. but but, but I think there there is some sense calling that organization should to say. we're doing this this because need to, there's something missing this world that

POD00058:

need to fill.

IMG_6281:

Now hopefully

Josh:

it's got an ethical purpose, it's got some good purpose and so again, they go together, it's a, I an either or. I I think both And they other. They're reciprocal and they, and I think reciprocal. think it's constantly moving. You so as you get new employees, that purpose is feeding forth.'cause their purpose purpose that they've grown their connections

IMG_6281:

is now feeding into the company, and the company

POD00058:

feeding starting to put those

IMG_6281:

together and then so on and so on, and so on and so on.

POD00058:

on. Mm-hmm. You know, and I think we're doing that personally as well. Yeah. Our purpose is being

IMG_6281:

molded

POD00058:

our inner, it's being, mine is being molded

IMG_6281:

right now in this conversation.

POD00058:

Mm-hmm. You know, that's the way

IMG_6281:

I would view every interaction, every relationship we're having is remolding.

Josh:

Aspects of we are and what our purpose is. Mm-hmm. least if open it.

Leslie:

So I feel like we're doing parallels between individual and Yeah. Yeah. Company. So the that came out of season one I'll use the word ritual people that are clear, their purpose and they're living on purpose. They rituals in their day, daily. It was daily does that exist in, in companies that live on purpose? Is there daily ritual? Is there ritual around purpose?

POD00058:

I, I mean, I

Josh:

I not a ritual person. But seen a lot them and I, and I, and to to me, they emerge. They're not something you Okay. Put in place. Okay. And you say, now we're going do

POD00058:

Mm-hmm. I, I,

IMG_6281:

think those happen, but a lot of times they don't. Work out think

POD00058:

they just emerge, that somebody comes up with something that just

Josh:

resonates them in some way and

POD00058:

do

Josh:

and somebody and says, I like And then they it. Mm-hmm. And

IMG_6281:

then somebody else does you know, so I think,

Josh:

I that, um, I think rituals emerge. From connection each

POD00058:

other. Okay. And

IMG_6281:

that enterprise

POD00058:

they're doing together. Okay. And the

IMG_6281:

the individual may have some too. Yeah. I

POD00058:

we, we need to have some sense

IMG_6281:

of order in our

POD00058:

Think about traditions and things. You know, sometimes traditions get in that you have to follow those traditions or

Josh:

else, but then it doesn't allow new traditions. Right. And

POD00058:

growth and all of that kind of stuff. That something that's natural, something that comes out of

IMG_6281:

of the energy

POD00058:

purpose or comes out of

IMG_6281:

of the or whatever it

POD00058:

that just emerges in some way. Those

Josh:

are really, really, powerful. but But, I I lot of organizations

POD00058:

try and institute them and they, and don't do that kind of fall, fall, flat. Yeah.'cause everyone can see

IMG_6281:

through it as, oh, this is just another

POD00058:

kind of thing. Even if it's not intended to be that, it just feels

IMG_6281:

that And so

POD00058:

I always suggest that

IMG_6281:

that leaders look for

POD00058:

that are emerging and then

IMG_6281:

encourage

POD00058:

do those or say, Hey, that was really

IMG_6281:

cool.

Josh:

don't we do that why don't you lead that before

IMG_6281:

cause I think that

Josh:

would be really good. And of a sudden it

POD00058:

doesn't become the leader doing it, it becomes the employees doing it. Right. And

IMG_6281:

And that gives it even more

Leslie:

Yeah. Well, going back to what earlier about, individual purpose, what is life asking Company? are, what's business asking or the market of the business and looking for those. Mm-hmm. You know, and

IMG_6281:

yeah.

POD00058:

Observing

IMG_6281:

and seeing

POD00058:

know, raising

IMG_6281:

Yeah.

POD00058:

And, you know,

IMG_6281:

know, I

POD00058:

if we

IMG_6281:

we go back to kind of that idea of the employee

Josh:

experience the co-design, a lot of times leaders want push too hard. They feel they're responsible

POD00058:

Setting

IMG_6281:

the culture and creating this, and driving this and all of that. And really, I mean, our approach is more let the employees Mm-hmm. Give them the opportunity to do it because, because

Josh:

change from the

IMG_6281:

the top is

POD00058:

than change It's slower from the bottom, it's much easier because people

Josh:

resist their own ideas. So sometimes leaders in their own

IMG_6281:

own way. By pushing too hard, creating everything, forcing the culture, forcing the artifacts, forcing the events and all that,

Josh:

as opposed to allowing the employees to a voice and their show their and

IMG_6281:

their rituals and their

Josh:

things and and, then say, how leader? facilitate the of those, or the spread or the nurturing nurturing which is whole different way leading. we're taught, you gotta drive. And I, if I hear drive I'm gonna like, I've heard too much. It shouldn't

IMG_6281:

be driving so you

Josh:

you should be nurturing, you should be growing, you should be looking for opportunities to, to grow drive things. driving means you're it down. And, and people resist that. They They don't So if you to create a, you purpose-based culture, want to emerge from people's Right. And feelings Let them have a voice their purpose And why fits in, facilitate conversations and allow come their own rituals and and their and their own, uh, you know, use their own energy and then blend into the organization as is just

IMG_6281:

another

POD00058:

part of the organization. Right. You the

Josh:

the is going determine purpose, tell purpose is, then we're gonna it on your plan, and then each year gonna, tell us how you lived your purpose. well, don't you to do that, now it's purpose anymore. Right. It's an an Mm-hmm.

POD00058:

not

Josh:

really, there's there's no, energy to

POD00058:

at

IMG_6281:

at all

POD00058:

anymore. Yeah. It's a mechanical

IMG_6281:

process

POD00058:

I

IMG_6281:

I can't help but sit here and that

Leslie:

I don't think I have ever been asked my purpose at work. Oh, really? Have you? That's when I out with, with, to the

Josh:

more human. That the only time. that one time you were asked? The one time Okay. Now I did. boss

POD00058:

a colleague or? No, it was a colleague. Now, I

IMG_6281:

I did work, work with an organization where that

Josh:

did one of the key elements that, that we worked was actually having

POD00058:

president of

IMG_6281:

of the

POD00058:

go to each

IMG_6281:

employee

POD00058:

and ask them what their purpose was. Yeah. And

Josh:

to his credit, he. Basically said, want you find your purpose and if can't find purpose here, don't waste your time. Go find Right. Which is Yeah, It's brilliant. I love that because just the act of him asking mm-hmm. tells me

Leslie:

I'm allowed to have my own purpose Yes. I'm expected to. He wants me to. Yes. and, and, he wants to in alignment.

IMG_6281:

With

POD00058:

business. Yeah. Now, what was also brilliant is

IMG_6281:

that

POD00058:

the employees

IMG_6281:

actually created the purpose

POD00058:

organization. the employees created all the, created the purpose and fed it up to the leaders.

Josh:

And they also created the the values for But executives

POD00058:

ask them,

Josh:

but what's your purpose in, in. Conjunction with that, uh, corporate do in it? Mm-hmm. What's important to you? And that the, the conversation. And became kind of, uh, part and parcel organization. But it was a different of of operating.

POD00058:

You know, and

Josh:

and it took

POD00058:

time,

Josh:

you know, for an for An executive go to employee. Absolutely. Take some Yeah. But it, I it had huge on people. and said, you know, you're given permission, right. Because lot people don't things do don't do organizations cause they don't have

POD00058:

mm-hmm. And you

IMG_6281:

you need somebody to say, no,

POD00058:

can, you're That's okay. Right.

IMG_6281:

And so a lot of,

POD00058:

a

IMG_6281:

a lot of, these kinds of

POD00058:

things, values,

IMG_6281:

purpose,

POD00058:

uh, individual kind of exploration of those things. Being a caring about others, having empathy, a lot of it is permission based. Mm-hmm. Basically give people permission. Well, that's what I was just people thinking of permiss in terms of

Leslie:

what can people do. people permission. give, give,'em'em Allow them to explore. Yes. Yeah. Ask the question. But it can't one and done either. Because over time, the soul of the company gets buried down there. Absolutely. And it is a little scary because

Josh:

you don't know what

POD00058:

may happen.

IMG_6281:

Right.

POD00058:

But in the workplace, we've come to this point where we're sort

IMG_6281:

of,

POD00058:

You can't make mistakes. You always have to be buttoned up. You

IMG_6281:

always have to show, you know, everything.

POD00058:

it's like, and especially leaders

IMG_6281:

are, are,

POD00058:

are, think that that's how And I, if I

IMG_6281:

I, ask for gonna show that I'm not now,

POD00058:

it's actually that you're being a great leader because you're saying, I don't have the capability of doing this. I'm gonna get people who really know what they're doing. Right. That's a good

IMG_6281:

leader.

POD00058:

Um, anything else on the topic of purpose in the workplace? Gosh, what else? What other questions do you have? I don't know.

IMG_6281:

We, we talked

POD00058:

a lot of stuff. The main thing I'm hearing is

IMG_6281:

that

POD00058:

as as human beings, we're messy, iss not the right word, but we're just unstructured. It's unformed, it's It's fluid. There's no perfection in humanity and in business. Humans exist in business too. And so creating a space

IMG_6281:

in business where

POD00058:

can be humans, and

IMG_6281:

and that means

POD00058:

have dialogue, space for a space for connection, a space for empathy, care, concern, and permission to do so. Yeah. And in doing that and connected to the company's purpose, why it

IMG_6281:

exists. Mm-hmm.

POD00058:

We all can work together to move in the right direction. Yeah. Yeah. Because we're operating as human

IMG_6281:

beings Yeah.

POD00058:

Yeah. And add onto what you're saying

IMG_6281:

is we're not just messy. we're weird combinations of So on the one hand, we're ordered, but

POD00058:

the other hand we're chaotic. on we're, we love to rip things apart and, and you know, try and understand how they And on the other hand, we have to put things back together to

IMG_6281:

understand contradictions, what they mean.

POD00058:

We get, all these contradictions that are part of us

IMG_6281:

and what,

POD00058:

what we do is we try and limit ourselves to one of'em, because it feels safe. As opposed to saying, you know

IMG_6281:

know what?

POD00058:

Let's, I use both sides.

IMG_6281:

Let's try and

POD00058:

both sides

IMG_6281:

and, and they're gonna be contradictions. But you know what, you see a whole different world. You see things in a whole different way. But it's, it's being able to, to recognize that these things coexist and we have to figure out how to deal with instead of how to get rid of them. But to some extent we're trying to convince ourselves to oversimplify because then it's just easy and, but easy is not the way to reality. Right. You know, the reality is, is a difficult road. Right. It's a hard road. Yeah. And, um, but, but it's a joyful road. And it's a road that when you kind of are on the path and all this is on the path I mean, purpose is a path, it's a journey. And I think if we think of it that way, then all of a sudden things change in terms of how we approach the world, how we see the world, how we approach relationships. Mm-hmm. Friends, everything changes. Mm-hmm. You know, in some way. Yeah. And you can see things in very different ways. Yes. Anything left unsaid? I don't, I don't think so. For now. For now. Yeah. How about that? Yeah. Chapter one. Oh. Well, thank you Josh for being on Purpose project. Thank you. It was really enjoyable.

Driving home through rural Indiana. After dropping my daughter off at college, I couldn't help but notice the small businesses along the way. Some of those small businesses looked alive. They looked vibrant, they had energy, they looked cared for. And others seemed worn down like they had been left behind, and then it hit me. This is what happens when the soul of a business is taken care of or not taken care of. When purpose isn't nurtured in a business, it becomes an afterthought instead of a guiding force, and the business loses its vitality. The same thing happens for us as individuals. Purpose is a way of living. It's not a goal, it's not a destiny. It is our being. And this not only applies to us as individuals, this applies to business as well. Businesses must be intentional to keep their purpose alive. So as you think about your work, your company, and your leadership, what practices are you creating to keep the business purpose alive? How are you taking care of the soul of the business? Josh, thank you for being on Purpose Project, and thanks to all of you for tuning in.

Leslie:

Purpose Project is brought to you for education and for entertainment purposes. This podcast is not intended to replace the advice that you would receive from a licensed therapist or doctor or any other qualified professional.

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Leslie Pagel

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