S1E3: Making a Ruckus with Denise Wiseman

In this episode of Purpose Project, host Leslie Pagel interviews Denise Wiseman, a passionate advocate for transforming healthcare. They discuss Denise's journey to discovering her life's purpose, the challenges she faced, and the importance of self-awareness and understanding. Denise shares her insights on the significance of kindness, the power of connections, and how leaning into passion can help overcome fear. The episode emphasizes that finding one's purpose is a continuous journey of self-discovery and growth, and offers practical advice for those seeking to understand and live out their purpose.

00:00 Introduction to Purpose Project

00:40 Meet Denise Wiseman: A Mission to Transform Healthcare

01:47 Denise's Journey and Philosophy

05:25 Defining and Pursuing Life's Purpose

09:45 Challenges and Discoveries in Healthcare

11:52 Breaking Away from the Mold

23:11 Advice on Self-Discovery and Purpose

34:22 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

37:39 Conclusion and Takeaways

Connect with Denise on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wisewoman1/

Send Denise an email: denise@healthcarereinvention.com

Learn about the Enneagram: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/

Purpose Project is a research study on the topic of life's purpose. You can follow along in the making of Purpose Project:
Instagram: @purpose.project
LinkedIn: @purposeproject-media
TikTok: @purpose.project

Captions are auto-generated.

Transcript

Leslie: 0:05

Do you have someone Or perhaps multiple people in your life that you are just in awe of because they have this clarity of their life's purpose and they are out there just going for it. They know exactly what they're trying to achieve, what they're here to do, and they are doing whatever they can to achieve that. For me, one of those people is our next guest. Hi, my name is Leslie Pagel and I am so glad that you are here with us today on Purpose Project because we have a ruckus maker on the show. Her name is Denise Wiseman. And she is on a mission to transform our healthcare system. And in our conversation today, you will hear how she is using her life's purpose to help accomplish that mission. Let's take a listen. Denise, thank you so much for being here with me today. I am really looking forward to learning about your pursuit of life's purpose and in hearing from you.

Denise: 1:27

I'm thrilled to have this conversation with you today. I'm just so honored that you asked me to step into this with you.

Leslie: 1:33

Absolutely. like I told you when I reached out, I am in awe as I watch you and I am grateful to you for being here and sharing your experience. Before we dive into your purpose, tell us a little bit about Denise Wiseman. Who is Denise Wiseman?

Denise: 1:56

You know, that's just like a can of worms, Leslie, you know, that could go a variety of different ways. Um, you know, I think I would say. I'm really a, passionate advocate for fighting for justice and seeking solutions to those problems that hold people back from living their best lives. One of the things that I really focus on is, and it took me a long time to get here, but really focusing on how can we each. Turn and give a hand, which may just be a kind word to our fellow humans, especially in this Society that we live in right now that has been taught to do otherwise, to feel elevated up by putting others down. And so who I am is really somebody who has learned a lot about that mark that I want to leave in this world. And when I have an experience with somebody, whether it's a conversation such as this Leslie with you or with others, how am I leaving that? person that I'm touching in some manner. I don't always do it well. I am very human, but really recognizing that I think that there is this connection that we all truly have to each other, that our society has broken that awareness. And so I really seek to help to reform those connections that are truly relational and how do we, through that web that we create, lift each other up and don't let anybody be lost and held back. And we've got a large swath of individuals within our culture and in our world who are currently being held back.

Leslie: 3:51

Well, I imagine that those that are listening to this are going to feel connected to you and feel lifted up through this conversation. One of the things that I heard from you is, you seek in your interactions to create a reaction that is one that lifts people up and makes them feel good.

Denise: 4:15

Yeah. And as I hear you say that, yes, that's very true. And sometimes, somebody could hear that and think that I'm just Pollyanna, right? That I'm out there just trying to touch a magic tricks. Wound on people. And that's not necessarily the case. In many instances, it's that we're connecting about something that is a shared purpose. And that connection is lifting them up, engaging them, or that we're having those conversations that are help each other to grow. And you know, when you first look at that, that might not feel like a positive touch, but when we do it right, it is right. Gosh, I see you. I see what you can be. I'd love to help you. Can we talk about that? Um, and so recognizing that it's not just by being super sweet and nice, which I think most people who's listening to this, who know me would say that that's not. That's not always Denise, um, but that it is truly, the goal is to help everybody be their best selves. Right. How do we do that?

Leslie: 5:23

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So talk to us about your life's purpose. Do you feel like you have identified a purpose in your life?

Denise: 5:37

That's kind of a yes and no answer because what I recognize is what I'm currently working on today will likely shift greatly in the years to come. It already did. You know, when I, I talk about stepping out of healthcare and I kind of joke, I wasn't, I didn't really step. I got pushed out, which is fine, but, who I was three years ago is very different. Because of the work that I'm doing towards seeking to transform health care, right? Our, uh, this, this societal injustice that we currently have. And so I'm very much aware of keeping that door open, that what my purpose is today, what I can describe it as today is going to shift greatly as I learn more. And other people come into the. Picture and show me other ways of being,

Leslie: 6:34

So I'm hearing that your purpose has evolved and it will continue to evolve. And I've got questions around that, but before we go there, how would you describe your purpose as it is today?

Denise: 6:48

Yeah. I can say it briefly and say my purpose is to transform health care, but goodness, that's a, that's a big one. Um, mammoth complex. And so really what my purpose is. Around that, kind of related to the how to do that, my purpose is to, connect individuals to be able to connect and empower them to recognize that when we align together, There's so much we can do. And through that, it's those individuals, because I'm just one person. I only know so much. I only have so much experience. How in the world can I tackle this? But that one person, every, every individual has experience and strength and knowledge that they can contribute. And so my purpose is to be that person. Network Weaver that connects people that helps people find the others who can enrich them so that they now know better, can do better, have the resources, tools, whatever it may be to take action. And when they look back, so myself, when I look back on those three years and what has transpired, it's the connection to people and knowledge through those people that has gotten me to where I am today. That's really what I want to create is that network that individuals will recognize. When they look back a year from now, my goodness, because I was connected to that network, I met this person and that person who enriched my life and has greatly changed who I am and what I'm doing and the contribution I can make. So that's really my purpose is to weave a strong network of relationships that are collectively coming together to innovate and transform what healthcare can be.

Leslie: 8:49

I love that. I love that. And I have been watching you do that for a couple years now. And that's what I see. You are an enabler for conversation, for collaboration, for progress, around our healthcare system. Um, and it's why I really was so excited to have you here because, It's one thing to define your purpose. And I'm realizing through this study of purpose that not everyone has identified their purpose, but when you do, it's a whole nother thing to realize it. You know, there's a lot of fear, uncertainty, doubt that goes into the pursuit of purpose. What are some of the kind of feelings for you as you seek out to create these connections in healthcare? How do you feel in pursuing your purpose?

Denise: 9:51

Well, there's a lot that came up to this because there's, I would say that I was lost for a long time. but when I answered that question, my goodness, what do I feel? Um, energized. Scared, inspired, uh, connected. I think, I think that's a real core one is through this, the people I have met, just that, That awareness that I'm not alone, these things that I think and believe we can do, others also think and believe we can do. So that sense of connection is really powerful. I also feel challenged on a daily basis because this is such a big complex thing that we're trying to do. Um, but fundamentally there's that sense of hope. I really believe. That we can do this, that there's a way to do it. None of us knows exactly how to do it, but we believe that if we come together and we start to lay those paths or those bricks in the path that we, that we risk making mistakes, that we can find the solution. And fundamentally that we remain really hopeful. And then, you know I sign most of my emails wishing you joy because that is, That to me is such a critical element of life is that we can find joy, moments of joy. Not, not every moment is going to be joy filled, but that we find those moments of joy in each of our days and in the work that we're doing. And this work I'm doing fills me with joy.

Leslie: 11:34

Yeah. Oh, what I just heard is. That your purpose, it gives you, it gives you energy. It gives you joy. It also gives you some, challenges to tackle, but that's not bad. You know, that's part of what energizes you. I imagine how did you discover this purpose?

Denise: 11:55

You know, goodness, I mean, I could talk in just the last few years, but path to how I've gotten where I am today, Leslie,,has really come over decades. So I've, I've worked in healthcare for decades. Um, and in my early twenties, I was lost for, I think I mentioned that I was lost for many years. In my early twenties, I actually dropped out of college and ran as far away as I could on the continent. Um, I live in Washington state and I was in a very small town in Washington state and I ran away to Philadelphia.

Leslie: 12:35

Wow. Um,

Denise: 12:37

I worked as a nanny and I'm just really lucky that. I landed with an exceptional family, um, a lovely woman, uh, who, helped me in so many ways. So I was really lucky, but, you know, I ran away from my life because I didn't know what I was doing. And really for a lot of people, My life. I did that. But what I've learned is I think back on it is trying to find your purpose when you know that what you're currently trying to do doesn't fit, but you don't know what else to do. Right. And I think the unfortunate thing is too many people try to stay in that place that they feel that they're supposed to be. that's what they were raised with. I personally was raised with, you know, you go to college, you get a degree and then you do that work for the rest of your life. You get a job somewhere and that's where you stay forever. That wasn't my path. One, I dropped out of college when I came back the next year, I transferred to a different college. So, um, My work career has been varied. I started in health care as a registered dietitian and switched from that and had quite this checkered path in health care. But all of that has led me to where I am now. If I hadn't tried on a variety of different things, one, I wouldn't have learned what I know now. But I also wouldn't have found my purpose. And possibly I wouldn't have found joy because I would have been stuck doing something that I knew didn't fit me But I felt like I had no other options So to find my purpose I had to have This unusual path and that path has brought me to where I am now And so I think when I answer how Did I discover it? It's through stops and starts, um, challenges and really getting off the path, which I did so many times and I kept trying to get back to that path. I I was told I should be on and I kept trying and then I'd go back off of it and it's finally embracing that no, my, my path is not that. And you know, I've been told before, get in your swim lane, you're, you're swimming all over the pool, get in your lane. No, the lane is not for me. I want to be in the whole pool and that's okay. But being able to sit, to understand who you are and how you best. Thrive. And that what others are telling you you're supposed to do isn't always right. And it's okay to trust

Leslie: 15:28

your instinct. Yeah. So how did you do that? How did you kind of break away from the mold? Because I do think that there are a lot of people listening to this that. Are stuck, I've been thinking of it as like conditioned, we've been conditioned to live a certain way, show up a certain way. And, and you pushed up against that. How did you do that?

Denise: 16:00

So to be honest, it was when, as I described it, I was pushed out of healthcare that I actually finally got on this path that, that I was I'm supposed to be on. I tried to do it in the traditional route, meaning get a job, you're working for somebody else. And I always thought every time I started a new job, this one's going to be different. I'm going to be able to make a difference here. Um, and in health care, There's such a level of bureaucracy and hierarchy and whatnot. I couldn't flourish. I couldn't be myself because I don't do well in political confines. Um, I need to be able to speak and be who I am. And most organizations, unfortunately, aren't structured to really allow that. If, especially if you're in certain positions, but by getting pushed out of healthcare, I was really lucky. Um, When that happened, I was given an amazing severance package. Nine months. So I had nine months of safety to be able to explore. That was the best gift I could ever have. Um, but then I would say I combine that with I have, The most amazing husband ever who completely believes in me and supports me and lifts me up. Um, and so that has helped and I know not everybody has that. So I am very lucky. But through all of that, it was that recognition that I could try things and, see if they succeeded. I took a course from Seth Godin. My tagline is make a ruckus that makes a difference. I got that from Seth Godin who really talks about individuals who have a passion or as you identify, have a purpose that they bootstrap. That they figure it out, that they take the different paths. So it was learning from Seth that, my goodness, people do this. People walk a, a different way and risk failing and not just risk it, but celebrate it. And that was, that just opened doors for me that one, there is this network of individuals who are. willing to step out and try something different aren't scared of failing. That was just tremendous to me. And you know, Seth talks about make a ruckus, but he doesn't talk about making chaos. He talks about making a positive ruckus. You see something that needs to be tackled, do it. So it's those types of things that really have helped me to get on this path and by my individual bricks that I've put into this path and diverging. That I've needed to do taking those risks and recognizing that I can either succeed with them or I can learn from them. And they may not be complete successes. Yeah. But I'm not hurt by it. Right. If it's, if it's a safe risk, take it. Right. So it's, it's been that. So that's kind of a long way to answer your question, but I'll stop there and see where you wanna go with that. I

Leslie: 19:24

mean, there's, there's so much that I am thinking through here.'cause I heard a situational thing where healthcare asked you to leave. kicked you out.

Denise: 19:34

Mm-Hmm.

Leslie: 19:35

And so that's a situational thing. Um, and I sensed that perhaps leading up to that was also you living your authentic self in work in healthcare. Mm-Hmm. um, in how that can make a clash. In work in healthcare, when we, when there's bureaucracy and we're being our authentic self and it clashes with the bureaucracy. Um, so what I'm hearing underneath this is a true kind of understanding of self. And a. An honoring of it, to allow yourself to live authentically. And I think that that can be hard for people to do it, particularly in a corporate setting when there are some of those clashes is, am I hearing some of this right? Yeah,

Denise: 20:38

two things really stood out to me and you're right. I was struggling within the healthcare system because the system is broken and I could see that and I wanted to help correct it, but it's not set up for that inside healthcare. So by being kicked out, they were really saying, this isn't the space for you. Right. And they're right. I can make a difference. in our healthcare system outside of it. Right. And that's what I'm seeking to do is find those others who are also falling or getting kicked out of healthcare, who have a passion for what we could do..And bring them together because those who are inside healthcare right now, who I was struggling against, they, they're locked in that mindset that I was trying to be in. That, that this is what I'm supposed to do. This is how I'm supposed to do it. So it was really a gift to get kicked out and I appreciate it. The other thing you said, understanding self, and I think that is a huge, thing, Leslie. It took me a long time to understand myself a long time. And what I've recognized is I see and experience the world very different than a lot of people around me, but we all do, right? We all have a very different way, whether it's how we were raised or it's just our innate who we are, but it took me a long time to. Understand that, that people can be so completely different in how they see and experience the world. And that was really important for me. The biggest thing that it was important for me to recognize is my differences aren't bad. Right? There's, there's strengths in my differences and how do I balance that with the strengths that other people have that are my weaknesses? Right. And that we, and thus we cannot do this on our own. It is that recognition and appreciation of who other people are that will enable us to ourselves be better, but to collectively be better.

Leslie: 22:58

Yeah. you talked about how the self discovery was long and hard. I can relate to that. I'm still in the process of that. what advice do you have for people out there who recognize that perhaps that's the first step that they can take to finding their purpose is to really, uh, understand themselves. What advice do you have from your experience?

Denise: 23:27

Mm hmm. I think that's good. Uh, my advice is don't try to understand yourself from just within your own head, right? I think it's really important to reach out to people who understand this. So I've had, uh, counselors, I've had a. fabulous coach. If anybody wants a fabulous coach, reach out to me. Um, I have taken a number of different, personality tests and I know we can argue about the validity of them and the, the The benefit of them is the recognition that the reflection that you can put into it to say, yeah, that's right. You know, when I learned that I was an Enneagram type eight, I fought against that. Um, and yet, It's right. That, that is my automatic, right? And there are strengths in that. As long as I'm at my healthy self, right? You get sleep, you get exercise, you're grounded. Because when I allow myself to be unhealthy, I go to the Bad side of that personality type. And so it's that recognition not to use it as an excuse. Well, I'm a type eight. That's just how I am. No, but to be able to say, huh, I'm a type eight. I need to understand how that might rub. on somebody or else, or how negative that might be if I am not healthy. And so I think it's really important to explore those different types of tests. I'm all for them. But more importantly, to then find yourself a good counselor or coach, um, somebody who can objectively help you to explore that and help you to find the path to being your best self.

Leslie: 25:21

Yeah, I love that. And for those who might not be familiar with Enneagram, I'll drop a link into the notes for this episode. Okay. Denise, you've helped us understand, one step in discovering our purpose is to understand ourself and to, honor ourselves and to be open to. Taking action and doing the things with inside of us, listening to our instincts and acting on them. When you talked about Seth Godin, you also talked about this connection of passion. And one of the things I was hearing there is when your purpose is something you're passionate about, you're willing to do it. You're willing to take the risks. Can you share with us any advice on leaning into the passion, not letting fear hold you back?

Denise: 26:17

Um, if somebody were asked, we're going to ask me, what am I going to be doing in my retirement? I would kind of look at them to say, what do you mean I'm, I'm doing what I'm always going to be doing. I just can't imagine letting go of this. And that's what a purpose is, right? And when you can, when the work that you do is aligned with your purpose, it, it is, it's a beautiful thing. Mm hmm. In regards to what people can do, Leslie, can you restate your question so that I feel like I got off?

Leslie: 26:53

I, it's a little bit about I think what's underneath the question, Denise, is not letting fear stop you. Um, and you talked about. So, you know, having, when it's something you're passionate about, you're probably less likely to let fear hold you back because it's just, you know, rooted in, in your passion and your beliefs and, and you celebrate failures. And I was just curious from your experience, if you have examples of that, that we could learn from.

Denise: 27:24

Yeah, no, that's really good. Thank you. So I held myself back for years, being scared. After I finished my PhD, I, I thought I was going to start a business and, um, I was scared. So instead of I went back and into the traditional work for somebody else, it is very scary. So what I would, what has been of greatest value to me is to recognize that when I'm Looking at that big, hairy, audacious. goal that's off in the future. That is terrifying because I don't know how to get there. But if I can instead say, huh, what's something that I can do today that's really small, that's on the path to that goal and do that, it's still kind of scary, but not nearly as scary. Then Right. And you succeed or you fail, but it's also that, that recognition that if it didn't go the way you wanted and you failed, you know, I, I was taught by that same coach that if anybody wants to know his name, I'll share it, but to say, huh, I failed. I failed. I tried. Love that. Yes. I leaned into it. Right? And that's okay. It's not, it's not a bad thing. We, we need to fail in order to learn and be able to step forward. So when it's really scary, how can we break it down into a smaller, less, less, less. Overwhelming scary and then continue, you know, James clear talks about the 1 percent better continuously try something new and keep going and expand and then you'll be able to take on those things that will really get you to that hairy audacious goal, right?

Leslie: 29:14

Yeah, I love that. What is the thing you can do today? It doesn't have to be the, the big hairy audacious goal. It can just be a simple. Step to take. Right. Right. And the more of those that we take, the more comfortable we're gonna get. That's right. And the more momentum we'll have as well.

Denise: 29:33

That's right. That's right. Yeah. And if you fail, celebrate it. Celebrate it, right? Yes. Let's not wallow, but let's, gosh, I tried. That is success. I tried. Right. And then what

Leslie: 29:47

did I learn? Right. Exactly. Love that. Earlier you talked, Denise about how. Your purpose has evolved over time and I've been curious to learn if purpose is something that finds us or do we find it? Do you think your purpose was a part of you all along or is it something that You set out and discovered for yourself.

Denise: 30:18

I think it's a both. And here's, here's why I say that. My purpose in regards to being an advocate, a champion for people, I think that's innate. The fact that it's come into the direction of healthcare. That's, that's because that's the career path I had and I see so much opportunity there. So I think it's, it's both.

Leslie: 30:42

Yeah. Well, and you answered my other question, which is why healthcare, um, yeah, yeah.

Denise: 30:51

You know, for so long in healthcare, I only saw what we see within the walls of working in a hospital or a clinic. Mm hmm. But that has. When I moved into the field of patient experience, I saw beyond that, because then I heard the many stories of when health care has dropped somebody, right? And that led me to that greater awareness of the significant disparity of access to care, whether it's financial, it's location, whatever it may be. Um, and the other many challenges we have in our healthcare system. Um, and so, yeah, healthcare, it's, uh, it is definitely an avenue that opens many doors, but, you know, to this work that I can do. But What I often say, Leslie, is health care, the problems that we have in health care are just symptoms of the problems we have in our society. So as we seek to correct these elements within health care, we have to look at the root causes. Right. And the root cause is often something that's occurring in our society. So that, that, Battle we're going to have to fight is going to be beyond, uh, the, the system itself, it's society.

Leslie: 32:22

Yeah. And I imagine there are people like me who are listening to you say this. And saying, Oh my gosh, I, I agree. I see it all the time. Um, but from your perspective, what can we do? What can we do? Cause we're all a part of society. What can we do to help, change our society and change healthcare? I love that. And

Denise: 32:53

Leslie, I would say that there's a lot that we can do and that can feel very overwhelming and some people are going to say, you know, Give me something that I can tangibly do. And I would go back to that, what we started the conversation with being kind, thinking about how we can lift up this person that we're talking with, thinking about, especially in the, the tenor of our politics right now, how can we have conversations where we're not throwing people under the bus? Bus that we're not tearing them down, but we're seeking to understand and so just You know, it could just be kind those little things are steps towards changing our society And so it's really being mindful of the impact we're making on others And what is something small I can do to shift that impact to be positive rather than negative

Leslie: 33:56

Yeah, I love that. I am going to be thinking about the interactions I have with people over the next couple of days and beyond. And looking for those moments where I can shift it to be more positive, more kind, more understanding and curious. You talked about being curious as well. We've covered a lot of ground. Denise, are there any other things left unsaid when it comes to your purpose and, how you discovered it and how you're living it out?

Denise: 34:33

Yeah, there's a couple of things that I had written down. One, you know, when I got pushed out of healthcare, I had just celebrated my 50th birthday. And so it's never too late. Some might feel like I'm, I'm too old. No, it's never too late. And actually a lot of the people I'm working with in creating what I'm currently working on are retired from healthcare. So they're a couple of decades older than I. Lots of experience too. Yes. That's right. That's right. Um, the other thing I would say is your past missteps or mistakes do not define who you are. We all have stories of mistakes. So yes, learn from them, take responsibility for them. Don't let them hold you back. That is not who you are today. Right. Um, so three others, one struggle is a part of life. You're not alone in having struggles and it can be really easy to allow your mindset to go dark, to feel like you're alone, that nobody understands, seek support, find those who can help lift you up and strive to see the positive and shift your mindset. Nobody else can do that for you. So how do you live your best life in part is you putting your mind towards that life you want to live. And then along with that is. None of us are intended to walk this path alone. Build a network, one that is built on true relationships, people that lift you up, not people that tear you down. And then that last one kind of reiterates what I've said, recognize that you're, you have influence on those around you. The smallest interactions can leave a big impact. So really considering, Is that a positive or negative impact? And what do you want to leave on on each person you connect with?

Leslie: 36:34

Awesome. I love those. If people want to get connected to help improve health care or, or reach out to you to learn about your coach, what's the best way for them to connect with you?

Denise: 36:50

Well, they can find me on LinkedIn. I'm very active out there. I'd love to connect with them there. They can send me an email, uh, denise at healthcare reinvention dot com. And, uh, yeah, I'd be happy to talk with anybody and share that coach's name. I know he'd be very open to speaking with others.

Leslie: 37:09

Wonderful. Denise, thank you so much. I've learned a lot, from you today. And, I'm sure those that are listening have to thank you for sharing your story and being, what might be perceived as vulnerable with us. You shared a lot about your struggles and changes in your life and, certainly appreciate you opening up with us today.

Denise: 37:33

Thank you so much, Leslie. I love this work you're doing and I look forward to listening to the stories of others.

Leslie: 37:38

Thank you. Thank you, Denise, for being on the show and thank you all for tuning in. There are so many things that I'm taking away from this conversation with Denise, but one of the things that I have found myself going back to over and over and over again is that. The path to our life's purpose is a journey. It's not a destination. And the conversation with Denise painted this picture in my mind's eye of that journey being a twisting and winding road. It's not a straight path. And around each of those twists and turns, we have an opportunity to really understand ourselves more and through self understanding and self awareness. We gain clarity in our life's purpose. Thank you all for tuning in until next time. Be brave in exploring and understanding yourself. Be brave in living out your life's purpose. Purpose project is brought to you for education and for entertainment purposes. This podcast is not intended to replace the advice that you would receive from a licensed therapist or doctor or any other qualified professional.